Training to learn (additional) feats?

[Heretic Apostate]

Anyone use "training" to allow people to learn additional feats?

If I were to do so, I'd treat it as creating a permanent magic item, which doesn't need a "body slot," and can't be dispelled. Further, the feat couldn't be used as a prerequisite in a feat chain.

I'm not a whiz with the magic item creation rules, so what would be the costs (gold and experience) to "train" in a feat like Lightning Reflexes or Deflect Arrows? I know there are rough guidelines for adding feats to items (or at least, I've seen them used, so they must exist someplace).

 

[MarauderX]

I guess I wouldn't do it in the first place if it weren't level dependant. 1st level characters could just start amassing feats if their uncle left them enough cash, and by 10th level it would just be ridiculous. I would encourage the training to swap out feats instead, like in OA, way before I would let the players train to give their PCs extra feats.

 

[Heretic Apostate]

Characters who could inherit money would be able to spend the money just as easily on magic items, though. If the DM is handing out that much money early on, it's not the "training" that is at fault.

I looked in the DMG, and it looks like skill bonuses are 1000 x bonus^2. So, to get one of the "skill plus skill" feats, it'd be 1000 x 2^2 ( =4000) each, or a total of 8000. Double it for non-restricted use, and you've got 16000gp. Make it so that it's not cumulative with the bonuses from the feat, and disallow it to be used as a prerequisite for feat chains, and I think it's balanced.

At 16000, that's the equivalent of two +2 weapons, minus the materials, right?

 

[the Jester]

No way, no how.

If you can just throw money into feats, then a reasonably high-level character could easily have tons of feats. Then how do you judge his CR? Etc. This is a can of worms I'm not going near, much less opening.

 

[Heretic Apostate]

I'm not talking Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack. I'm talking about the useless and rarely-picked feats. You know, the "+2 to this skill and +2 to this skill" feats. Plus maybe the saves feats (Lightning Reflexes, Great Constitution, Iron Will). I'm just trying to give characters the base benefits of the feats without having to expend a feat selection and without gaining any other benefits from the selection (such as being the start of a feat chain).

Okay, how about if, instead of saying "training in a feat," we instead say, "got a magical tattoo that mimics (but does not replace) a feat"?

Is that better?

 

[Morgenstern]

We have a training mechanic in Spycrat and Stargate SG-1 that allows charcters to do a little mini encouter (the final exam) and after that they can trade part of their limited supply of Gadget Points for time in the training room to pick up a feat for one mission only (they get the gadget points at the start of each adventure, so they can choose to make the swap each time, effectively taking less goodies for more feats). This isn't a permanent trade though, and the different resource structure of Spycraft means it's not directly portable.

What to might look at, along with your money calculatons is permanently filling a magic item slot also...

"I have trained with the mighty gladiators of Karros, and earned their respect. I have recieeved the mark of Karros, and have mastered many of their secrets!" *brandishes tattoo on back of left hand*

Mechanically the character has gained the Great Fortitude feat and may no longer benefit from a magic ring on his left hand ever again. OTOH the "item" cannot be removed, dispelled, or impeded by anti-magic fields. Those slots are finite, and will put a real pause on on taking more than one or two training opportunities . Cost ain't the only limitation on magic items...

 

[Heretic Apostate]

Okay, just found out my cost for the "training/tattoo" is off by one order of magnitude. So the Alertness tattoo would actually cost more like 1600, not 16000.

Still, I see little difference between a tattoo and a regular magic item... Unless you're going to disallow such items as the Boots and Cloak of Elvenkind, of course...

 

[Morgenstern]

There are a couple of differences.
The tattoo/training can't be removed. This changes it dramatically vs. items, which are more versitile, but also can be lost, taken away, or destroyed. Second, the training isn't magic. That changes the conditions under which it works (or fails to). Third, because it's permanent, and being presented as a feat, it makes you eligable for other feats that require that feat as a prerequisite - something magic items never do.

Finally, the "tattoo" is just a visual cue. If you want, you can skip it entirely, and just have the player accept the loss of a slot (not necesarily ring either - I just used that one for an easily followed example). In a lower magic setting, this would be a fairly trivial cost since you might never get an item for that slot anyway (and as GM, I'd be inclinde to steer away from them so as to not slap the player in the face for trying out my neat new rule .

Finally, you might put all the feats in a chain in one place, rather than one to a slot depending on the amout of trainign you want to permit. If I give up the helmet slot learning Cleave as part of training with the Great Northern Clan's berserkers, you might rule that Great Cleave could also be learned, and doesn't eat up another item slot. This is roughly analogous to discarding a +1 helm when you find a +3 one . Those Great North-types never wear helmets anyway .

There are certainly other ways to do it, but you'll probably benefit from identifying a fintite resource (not gold, and not XP) that the character is giving up to get this benefit.

 

[Heretic Apostate]

*looking through my posts*

yup, there's where I said "cannot serve as a prerequisite for a feat chain"

yup, there's where I said "limited to simple feats (Alertness, Lightning Reflexes, etc)"

I'm not sure most of your objections apply.

I think the only objection that applies is that, being non-magical, it's not subject to dispelling...

It's got the "double the cost if it's not using up a slot."

It's not allowed to work as a prerequisite for a feat chain.

Heck, it's not even allowed to stack with the corresponding feat!

Oh, to hack with it... *grumbling* I simply find it yet another thing about D&D that makes me gag at trying to swallow my disbelief.

 

[Morgenstern]

That's just it... I wouldn't double the cost, and I would let it be used as a prereq. It "training", NOT a magic item, and if you've trained, you can build on it with more experience (if not more "training", than the usual growth as a character). Those limitations you put on it make it more like a magic item, not less . I only mention magic item slots at all, because they are a resource, and if you don't give up -something- the opportunities for min/maxing are pretty severe.

Another option I was kicking around was burning skill points for it. Arguably, skill points are your "time to persue electives" in a class, so giving up 6 to 8 of them for a feat might work out, especially if you can't take feats that have other feats as a prerequistite with this option. You might have a rogue who feels it's worth his time to dump all his skill points for a level into buying a +2/+2 skill feat, and then maxing out those skills the following level. It's not a hugely attractive option, but pulling in extra feats from any source should be about hard choices and trade offs, unless you want to rebalance the entire game to allow for higher power levels and tougher encounters at a given level (Midnight does this quite well for example - allowing heroic paths for all PCs, but upping the competition too).