D&D 5E Transitioning to Combat

[robus]

Lots of good suggestions here. Something I will suggest is pre-rollling initiative so that you can smoothly transition into turn-based play when things get hot. This avoids the combat swoosh interruption. At the end of the encounter, seed the next initiative order. (The DM slots in the monster initiative order as needed.)

 

[Lyxen]

Lots of good suggestions here. Something I will suggest is pre-rollling initiative so that you can smoothly transition into turn-based play when things get hot. This avoids the combat swoosh interruption. At the end of the encounter, seed the next initiative order. (The DM slots in the monster initiative order as needed.)

I can understand the reason, just don't you think that is sort of spoils the surprise and allows some (possibly unconscious) metagaming from players if they know that they rolled particularly high or low ?

 

[Ovinomancer]

I can understand the reason, just don't you think that is sort of spoils the surprise and allows some (possibly unconscious) metagaming from players if they know that they rolled particularly high or low ?

Why would you care?

 

[Tonguez]

GM; anyone making stealth or deception checks?
- Narration
GM; make perception checks
- Narration
GM; okay combats on!

 

[le Redoutable]

All of these seem pretty straightforward. Someone actually declaring combat starts combat. Then it's potentially a roll for surprise (or implementation of one already made), and then initiative. Except the last example, that includes a conclusion past the initiation of combat - that has to be worked out.

So the example with the negotiations break down but no one wants to start. It doesn't transform into combat until someone actually starts. A declaration from either side. It seems everyone knows it's coming so no real chance at surprise so it's just initiative.

To give a related example, say there's negotiations that aren't going well but it doesn't look like hostilities are imminent, and then the poker-faced assassin goes for a stab. In that case I would do surprise but with Deception vs. passive Insight.

Let's look at Example #4, the ambush. We've got the stealth checks and passive perception going. The party wants to coordinate - is this some unfulfilled wish floating in the aether or did they actually plan to do so by setting up a signal, even if it's "wait until I fire". If they had no plan for coordination, it is completely possible that some of party are caught off-guard as well.

We already know what the result of the stealth vs. perception check for surprise is, since the ambush-ees didn't see the party (else it would be different). So it's likely something like "They are riding into view around the far bend. Stop me when you want to do something. Okay, all are in view and about 200 feet from the closest of you. 150 feet. You can see orc warchief, he's leading from the front. 125 feet. Let me know when you want to do something. 100 feet. 80 feet. If they get within 30 feet it's more likely they will spot you. 60 feet -- what's that, you want to attack when they are 35 feet from the closest? Gotcha."

Now, by the book, initiative will determine the order, and the people before the person signalling will be readied since that is their effective declared action. But mechanically that will usually penalize the people who rolled well (no move+attack, no extra attack, etc) which is contrary to the spirit of the resolution system so if it's "wait for me to fire" I'll put them at the start of round regardless of initiative.

(Note for players with DMs who just roll initiative and don't want to chance getting penalized with "Ready" - make the signal something you can do outside combat, such as the cry of a native bird. That shouldn't be part of the initiative order, so then veveryone just goes when they roll.)

Example #5 is only slightly about the declaration of combat, and that part has been covered. The rest is about ensuring one specific outcome, and really for me that's not something a game like D&D does. Other games you can lay out stakes and go for it in an atomic transaction, D&D wants to play out each bit.

Obviously you lack the 'cancel combat mode' spell

 

[Blue]

Obviously you lack the 'cancel combat mode' spell

Huh? You're making assumptions that are unfounded and unwelcome.

If someone is declaring an attack, we need to move to the granularity of time/mechanics to deal with that. That doesn't mean that people can't get out of combat. Last session we had one person shooting an arrow at a giant the rest of the party was negotiating with, because she hates giants. The rest of the party did not take attack actions, but rather was trying to talk the giant down. In another game we had arguing hotheats turn a scene into a combat and the life cleric cast calm emotions and everyone on both sides was willing to drop out of combat.

 

[robus]

I can understand the reason, just don't you think that is sort of spoils the surprise and allows some (possibly unconscious) metagaming from players if they know that they rolled particularly high or low ?

That’s not been my experience. Typically the players have forgotten by the time the next encounter rolls up.

 

[le Redoutable]

Huh? You're making assumptions that are unfounded and unwelcome.

If someone is declaring an attack, we need to move to the granularity of time/mechanics to deal with that. That doesn't mean that people can't get out of combat. Last session we had one person shooting an arrow at a giant the rest of the party was negotiating with, because she hates giants. The rest of the party did not take attack actions, but rather was trying to talk the giant down. In another game we had arguing hotheats turn a scene into a combat and the life cleric cast calm emotions and everyone on both sides was willing to drop out of combat.

Lol I was making pub for my topic " is the fighter a supercherie "

 

[FrogReaver]

Hi folks, I was wondering if I could get some good ideas as to how, at your tables, you deal with the transition to combat. At our tables, it's one of the very few areas where we have a house rule, as the 5e rules are generally flexible enough that we manage with the core rules and local rulings for edge cases. But in the case of transitioning to combat, we have a house rule that I'll explain later, but you might have a good idea what it is from the examples that I list below for you to tell me how you would deal with them at your tables, with RAW or house rules.

Just as a reminder, the 5e theory is that you can only attack while in combat, because it requires the attack action, which is a combat action (but again, some tables ignore this, which can certainly be a solution).

• Example 1: Negotiation between the party and a troupe of adversaries (drows for example), everyone is seeing that this is going to get sour, and PCs and NPCs both want to be prepared for when hostilities start, but no one wants to be the one that actually start it. How do you deal with this ?

If no one actually starts it then no combat. If someone declares to start it then roll initiative and enemies that go ahead that player realize his intent ie he started to move for his weapon or otherwise hostile act but they were prepared and reacted faster.

• Example 2: An assassin wants to make sure to have the drop on his unsuspecting target, who is in the next room with a locked door and a potentially noisy lock...

Assuming his target is otherwise distracted in the room then lockpick check to determine if he gets through silently. If he fails then target is aware. A particularly bad fail might result in the target being aware and the door staying locked.

• Exemple 3: The target of an assassination contract suspects an assassin is lurking in the next room, he wants to ensure that there is as few chances of him being surprised as possible...

Make the scene as concrete as needed. If the player suspects the assassain is behind the desk and the player carefully watches the desk when entering the room then he will not be surprised if the assassain is behind the desk. If the assassain is somewhere else or he doesn't have some specific idea of where the assassain is then perception vs stealth.

• Example 4: Ambush ! The party wants to coordinate their attacks to that they all surprise the column of orcs in the ravine below. How do they achieve this ?

The orcs are either surprised or not surprised. 1 character cannot surprise the orcs while the others do not. This would occur vs normal stealth vs perception rules.

• Example 5: Knifing in the street. A PC rogue wants to walk up to a politician at the agora and knife him in the back and make sure that he can achieve a quick get away despite the guards, both the bodyguards of the politician and the city guards around.

And I'm sure that you'll find plenty more examples.

This depends on the specifics of the guards etc. He may not even be able to get close to the individual. He may be able to get close but have no chance of escape.

 

[Lyxen]

That’s not been my experience. Typically the players have forgotten by the time the next encounter rolls up.

Good point, it probably depends on the combat frequency. If there are lots of combats, I can totally see some players, for example rogues, taking considerably less risks if they knew that they had rolled poorly, for example. But in other campaigns, like mine, were combat is infrequent at best, it might be OK.