Trap-disabler Wanted: Optimized halflings need only apply?

[Alkiera]

Feats are across the board less powerful, and more plentiful, so a +3 to a skill you want to be good at is not nearly the 'bad choice' it was in 3.x. It's not so much that there are fewer feats, rather there are fewer great feats, and lots of minor ones. I think part of this is that non-casters no longer get the majority of their combat abilities from feats, but from powers.

 

[Mike000]

Am I missing something here?

Skill challenges definitely need work, but this example?

The "dabbler" has a +12 skill, the DC is 22...if he's outside combat he can take 10 and automatically succeed at this. If he's trying to disable it during combat, then the crappy success rate actually makes sense.


Compared to 3rd and 3.5's 1st level wizard having a much higher chance of inventing a 9th level spell than a 1st level rogue disarming a 1st level trap...it's a non-issue.

 

[Lab_Monkey]

There is an easy solution for this. Let the other characters assist in disarming the traps. Four people can help you at the same time and each one that gets a 10+ on their roll (assuming an average Dex bonus of 1 this means they have to throw a 7 or higher) will give you a +2 bonus for disarming.

Of course this might have to wait until the room is free of other monsters.

This.

Skill challenges are supposed to involve the entire party. The fighter can focus on damaging some portion of the trap, the wizard and warlord can use aid another to improve the trap disarmer's bonus, the ranger can make Perception checks to notice alternative ways to bypass the trap, etc. Skill challenges are hard for a single character to defeat on their own. If there are ways to involve the whole party (and there should be) then those high DCs should be much more achievable.

 

[Mike000]

Well, yes - I get that. I'm rather looking forward to seeing that kind of thing in play. (Assuming my group ever stops its collective 4th ed freakout.)

I was mostly complaining about the OP's scenario - if the "dabbler" auto-succeeds by the RAW, how can he claim it requires hyper-optimized characters? And especially the claim that this is worse than the 3rd ed's traps, where the search and disable checks could be as high as TN 28 for a CR4 trap.

 

[Zerakon]

I see these trap examples as something that the disabler could choose to work on during combat, to reduce the negative environmental effects of a combat situation. The whole team pitching in to use Aid Another for the rogue seems obviously not practical during a combat situation, and in a non-combat situation, doesn't seem very exciting. I really don't think that is what was intended by the philosophy of skill challenges involving the entire party. I think the designers just chose to apply the skill challenge difficulty/complexity mechanics to some traps.

In any case, thanks norhg and others who offered suggestions for making these kinds of traps more fun/reasonable for a party without a specialist trap disabler.

 

[Zerakon]

Am I missing something here?

Skill challenges definitely need work, but this example?

The "dabbler" has a +12 skill, the DC is 22...if he's outside combat he can take 10 and automatically succeed at this. If he's trying to disable it during combat, then the crappy success rate actually makes sense.

I think you're missing the fact that you can't Take 10 in 4e to auto-disable a trap. Take 10 is described as dealing with mundane tasks, outside of encounters. Whether or not there is combat going on, I think you are in an "encounter" when you're trying to disable a pendulum trap, and pendulum traps aren't something you run into every day, so for two reasons you can't Take 10.

I also disagree that the crappy success rate makes sense during combat, because then it's a really really silly move to even try, rather than use his combat skills to help the party fight. What my point boils down to is that it's a game -- I want there to be interesting choices for my players.

 

[Voss]

I don't see the problem. 4th level Multiclass (ie, dabbler) at +12, up against a 4th level optimized Specialist at +18. I don't have any problem with the optimized specialist being 50% better at it than the dabbler. I'd be disappointed if this were not true.

Someone trained in the skill isn't a 'dabbler'. Thats everyone, sadly, by default. You shouldn't need training, max dex and skill focus (ie, a master) to have a reasonable chance of success. The 4e system punishes anyone who isn't optimized for even trying.

 

[Mike000]

I think you're missing the fact that you can't Take 10 in 4e to auto-disable a trap. Take 10 is described as dealing with mundane tasks, outside of encounters. Whether or not there is combat going on, I think you are in an "encounter" when you're trying to disable a pendulum trap, and pendulum traps aren't something you run into every day, so for two reasons you can't Take 10.

I also disagree that the crappy success rate makes sense during combat, because then it's a really really silly move to even try, rather than use his combat skills to help the party fight. What my point boils down to is that it's a game -- I want there to be interesting choices for my players.

hmm..

When you’re not in a rush, not being threatened or distracted (when you’re outside an encounter), and when you’re dealing with a mundane task, you can choose to take 10.

(*doublechecks to make sure I typed all that correctly*)

If outside of combat:

• Not in a rush, check.

• Not being threatened, check (heh, unless the party is unusually fractious, or he has to stand in a trap threatened-spot.)

• Not being distracted, check (usually, see above.)

• Dealing with a mundane task...debatable - but if you're trained in the skill, I'd say yes (and honestly...you're talking about a dungeon-crawling hero - he does run into traps quite frequently, if not every day.)

Looks like he should often be able to take 10 to me. Of course, that's all dependant on making the DC27 perception check to find the controls in the first place.

And honestly, you're better off NOT disabling a trap during combat - you should use it to your advantage - push enemies into it, force them to come at you through it, etc. That's why kobolds are so fondly thought of, after all.

 

[Thasmodious]

I don't see the problem. 4th level Multiclass (ie, dabbler) at +12, up against a 4th level optimized Specialist at +18. I don't have any problem with the optimized specialist being 50% better at it than the dabbler. I'd be disappointed if this were not true.

I agree. And this doesn't make optimizing the only way to go. Because a character optimized to disable traps is going to be less than optimal at many other things. In other words, both pay dividends. The dabbler can be reasonable at anything, and that works and is fun to play, while another can specialize and become really good at something, which can also be really fun, both in dealing with the thing he is best at and the things that suffer as a counter.

 

[Zerakon]

Mike000:

If you want to argue that the rogue doesn't have to roll to disable that trap, that's cool for your campaign. I interpret the trap itself as being an encounter, so I'm going to have my rogue roll. I know my players and know that they have fun rolling the old d20s and letting there be a chance of failure. I interpret the rules as supporting my argument, as the trap is worth Experience Points thus it is an encounter and Take 10 says you can't be in an encounter. But I do think the Take 10 rules could have been clearer.

As far as whether he should be fighting or disabling in this particular case: sure, if you're fighting things that you can push into pendulums, go for it. But what if you're fighting incorporeal stuff that isn't affected by the trap. And really, I'm talking about a general problem here (the skill challenge method for trap disabling), not just this one specific trap.

I think the people who are saying "it's okay for the dabbler to be worse than the specialist" are missing the point of the dramatic shift in the math regarding success vs. failure. I say it's too dramatic of a swing for my campaign and not fun to watch the rogue fail way more than he succeeds at such things. I think the 4e design is excellent overall, but I still conclude that they goofed with the math of skill challenges, and moreso by applying skill challenge mechanics to traps. At least non-thievery skill challenges will produce an interesting failure.