Treasure and leveling comparisons: AD&D1, B/ED&D, and D&D3 - updated 11-17-08 (Q1)

[MerricB]

I gave you XP too recently to do so again, but you deserve XP for this post.

(Now we can discuss EN World leveling.....)


RC

I've done it for you, RC.

Cheers!

 

[Doug McCrae]

I guess I'm confused because I don't even know if anyone is actually discussing the same game as anyone else in this thread.

We have to have some common ground or communication is impossible. That common ground can only be textual - rules, modules, articles in Dragon, etc.

Memory is faulty, very faulty. It ends up being hopelessly tainted by personal prejudices or nostalgia or all our other human irrationalities. I started playing D&D 27 years ago and I can barely remember 10% of how we played then, at best. For example I know I played G1 in the early 80s but I can remember absolutely nothing about it from that time.

 

[Storm Raven]

Oh, I think characters were supposed to follow a linked series in order, without additional material between them. What you are citing is merely a practical issue concerning the nature of publication. Some of the adventures, such as G1-G2-G3 and A3-A4 are clearly intended to follow directly one after another.



3e has entire hidden areas in many modules that include encounters. That should have much the same effect as hidden treasure in a 1e module.



In 3e, the ratio suggested is 13 encounters per level.

Let's look at the Moathouse, where the Pcs are likely to go from 1st to 3rd level in 1e (so they can be even remotely ready for the Temple). The encounters listed (more or less in order) are:

1. Giant Frogs
2. Giant Spider
3. Bandits
4. Giant Snake
5. Giant Tick
6. Giant Lizard
7. Green Slime
8. Zombies
9. Ogre
10. Bugbears
11. Gnolls
12. Ghouls
13. Giant Crayfish
14. Lareth's Guards
15. Lareth

Doing the comparison "by encounter" makes it look like it may have been easier to level in 1e than 3e, since it only took 15 total encounters to potentially go from 1st to 3rd (and it is only 15 because I split Lareth from his guards, assuming he would stay holed up in his room until the PCs burst in on him, otherwise it would be 14 encounters).

Somehow I doubt this is what you expected.

Looking at the Moathouse, I note that I missed one encounter (that's what I get for working from memory): between the bandit encounter and the giant snake encounter there are some stirges, so there are sixteen total encounters in the Moathouse (fifteen if Lareth and his guards are consolidated).

Interestingly, we have a 3e example of the Moathouse. When Troika made a CRPG for Temple of Elemental Evil, they did it using the 3e rules (3.5e actually), and followed them pretty closely. It is interesting to note that Troika felt they had to add some story experience and minor encounters to be played before the PCs tackled the Moathouse in order for the PCs to have enough experience as they would need after finishing it to be able to move on to Nulb.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Looking at the Moathouse, I note that I missed one encounter (that's what I get for working from memory): between the bandit encounter and the giant snake encounter there are some stirges, so there are sixteen total encounters in the Moathouse (fifteen if Lareth and his guards are consolidated).

I can't seem to find these stirges you're talking about, but that's not really important...

The real issue is that the 15 or 16 "encounters" you're talking about don't translate into 15 or 16 "encounters" as 3e uses the term. 3e's "13 encounters per level" standard presupposes that the encounters are EL 1 encounters. To compare, just one of the 15-16 "encounters" you cite (11. Gnolls) is actually an EL 6 encounter in 3e. What was considered one "encounter" in 1e terms is considered six "encounters" in 3e.

 

[Storm Raven]

I can't seem to find these stirges you're talking about, but that's not really important...

The real issue is that the 15 or 16 "encounters" you're talking about don't translate into 15 or 16 "encounters" as 3e uses the term. 3e's "13 encounters per level" standard presupposes that the encounters are EL 1 encounters. To compare, just one of the 15-16 "encounters" you cite (11. Gnolls) is actually an EL 6 encounter in 3e. What was considered one "encounter" in 1e terms is considered six "encounters" in 3e.

No, that's not quite right. By the time the PCs will have encountered the gnolls, they will likely be 2nd level. Also, the 3e award set up presumes a 4 character party, which is a lot smaller than a typical 1e party was expected to be. If you add two or three PCs (or more, 1e adventures were often listed as being for 6-10 or 8-12 PCs), then the comparison become very similar.

Using the 3e rules, it would take 26.66 encoutners for PCs to get from 1st to 3rd level. The Moathouse, with 15 encounter areas does this for the 1e PCs. I don't see this as being a significant difference in the editions. In the Trokia CRPGS conversion, 3e PCs get to 3rd level just as they finish dealing with Lareth. That seems pretty close to where the 1e PCs would be.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I've done it for you, RC.

Cheers!

Thank you, Sir.

You are a gentleman and a scholar.

 

[Raven Crowking]

No, that's not quite right. By the time the PCs will have encountered the gnolls, they will likely be 2nd level. Also, the 3e award set up presumes a 4 character party, which is a lot smaller than a typical 1e party was expected to be. If you add two or three PCs (or more, 1e adventures were often listed as being for 6-10 or 8-12 PCs), then the comparison become very similar.

But you will have to stop using Q's numbers & provide your own, as Q's numbers are based on parties of the same size (6 characters)

AD&D1 party begins at: (0 xp each)
Fighter 1
Paladin 1
Cleric 1
Magic-User 1
Illusionist 1
Thief 1

D&D3 party begins at: (0 xp each)
Fighter 1
Paladin 1
Cleric 1
Wizard 1
Illusionist 1
Rogue 1

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Using the 3e rules, it would take 26.66 encoutners for PCs to get from 1st to 3rd level. The Moathouse, with 15 encounter areas does this for the 1e PCs. I don't see this as being a significant difference in the editions. In the Trokia CRPGS conversion, 3e PCs get to 3rd level just as they finish dealing with Lareth. That seems pretty close to where the 1e PCs would be.

And, this may have changed in 3.5, but in my 3e DMG, I note that you don't use a new column until the characters have gained 4th level for determining XP. So, having gained 2nd level doesn't change the 3e characters' XP for a tougher encounter.

Using the 3e rules, it would take 26.66 CR 1 encounters for PCs to get from 1st to 3rd level. It would take significantly fewer CR 6 encounters.


RC

 

[Storm Raven]

And, this may have changed in 3.5, but in my 3e DMG, I note that you don't use a new column until the characters have gained 4th level for determining XP. So, having gained 2nd level doesn't change the 3e characters' XP for a tougher encounter.

Using the 3e rules, it would take 26.66 CR 1 encounters for PCs to get from 1st to 3rd level. It would take significantly fewer CR 6 encounters.

EL is not the same as CR.

 

[Storm Raven]

But you will have to stop using Q's numbers & provide your own, as Q's numbers are based on parties of the same size (6 characters)

That actually biases things downward for the 3e party. In other words, they should not, at 1st level, be expected to defeat 13.33 EL 1 encounters to gain a level. Rather they should be expected to defeat 13.33 EL 1.5 to EL 2 encounters to do so. At second level they would be expected to defeat 13.33 EL 3 to 4 encounters to reach third level. So the fact that some of the encounters in the Moathouse would be EL 5 or 6 is balanced by the fact that some would be EL 1, which would be a "less than equal" challenge for a 6 person party.