Treasure Discussion: AD&D1, D&D3

[dcollins]

But the rules of Supply and Demand always apply.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand):

Criticism of Marshall's theory of supply and demand

One theory counter to Marshall is that price is already known in a commodity before it reaches the market, negating his idea that some abstract market is conveying price information... This would mean that the producer creates the goods without already having customers — blindly producing, hoping that someone will buy them... Modern producers often have market studies prepared well in advance of production decisions...

In other words, "supply and demand" may be a legitimate analysis for modern markets with lots of information about pricing, but possibly not for pre-modern markets with less well informed buyers and sellers.

 

[xnosipjpqmhd]

I have yet to see a published module in any edition (with the exception of some Dungeon mag. adventures) in which I didn't have to reduce the amount of coin and magic. Granted, I tend to run a localised, low-magic game.

Back in the day (80's), our PC sheets consisted of a 1/2-page of stats, a 1/2-page of background (if that), and about 4 pages of equipment list.

Now our PC sheets are more like 2 pages of stats, 2 pages of background, and a 1/2-page of equipment list.

ironregime

 

[Storm Raven]

In other words, "supply and demand" may be a legitimate analysis for modern markets with lots of information about pricing, but possibly not for pre-modern markets with less well informed buyers and sellers.

That's not a particularly powerful argument against supply and demand - in effect the market determines the price over time. If the producer overshoots and prices his product too high, no one will buy it and he will be forced to lower his price if he desires to sell his product. If he prices his product too low, then a secondary resale market will probably develop (or some people will get good deals and hold on to them).

 

[Melan]

It has been a while since I read The Village of Hommlet, but isn't most of the magical treasure devilishly well hidden? I recall one particular item, probably a cloak of some sort, which is hidden in a pile of rags with no hint of its whereabouts. Granted, Lareth the Beautiful also had a 10.000 gp gem on his person. Needless to say, if I were to run the adventure, I'd probably adjust some things*.


*I once counted monetary treasure for all three giants modules. I don't remember the exact figures anymore, plus a lot of it was semi-random as gems were given as "base X gp" specimens where X could increase quite a bit, but the end tally was around 10.000.000 gold pieces. If you could even gather all that loot, you could do just like Uncle Scrooge in those cartoons: take a bath in it.

 

[arscott]

I'm finding this a bit surprising. I always figured treasure was less plentiful in 1e than in 3e. I guess the primary difference is just how much treasure matters in terms of bookkeeping

 

[XO]

Campaign Issues, Progression & Treasure

We started playing back in '77 or '78 (our late teens, with the limited tools initially available back then) in a "nameless" soon to be Greyhawk or Grey-hacked (GH mixed in with various borrowed items) environment.

The initial premise in 1E was that your character would last until disposed of (either through campaign failure, irrevocable character death, or a will to do something else). Several "parallel" characters would be started up in a campaign to alleviate the potential pain of main character loss.

New campaigns appeared (Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, etc) came to the fore. Many players are good at retaining gameworld detail, but many does not necessarily define a huge percentage. Game play "suffered" due to sprawl, and the Thurs night GH, Sat or Sun DL alternating with DS, multiple campaign management.

Solution: fast advancement, so as to promote concentration within a single settng, reaching a finale or some form of conclusion before cranking out some other game world.

The SAD part of 3e was the cnversion from earlier editions to 3e pamphlet. Should have read "triple the level....No! Quadruple or quintuple the level...".

The early campaign was put to rest (idleness, time issues) in '93 (or so). Highest levels were 16-17 (1E did take an awful long time to climb up the ladder). 1E broken rule was surprise.

We resumed playing in '00 with the advent of 3e. We do not play NEARLY as often as we did as a younger crowd. Sessions run 10% (maybe) of rate. We have other bits to take care of... Still, the characters are now 15-16... Rate of level accrual is roughly 30 times faster in 3e+.

 

[XO]

?????

Of course, the 1st ed characters don't get as much use out of their treasure because they can't sell items they won't use (so they have a lot of useless +2 weapons and armor, presumably to leave around for other adventurers to find ).

Your men-at-arms are cannon fodder? Or you live alone, far from any city or town, right?

I never saw any valuable go to waste in 1E. Sure, you can, as DM, ensure that most of the loot will stay behind or smehow get lost, stolen, removed: it was never difficult to create situations to screw players out of hard-earned treasure, but I prefer to embrace it...

1st level: "You live in a hovel"
10th level: "You live in a dump, namely a furnished and roofed hovel" ???

Not !

 

[johnsemlak]

does this also include the training rules and costs? just curious about your levelling data.

1edADnD limited you to 1 lvl gain until you trained.
newer editions you level as you gain.

It is really worth pointing out now that although the rule was in AD&D, many people didn't use it, including and especially Gary Gygax.

It is also worth noting that gold was pretty much worthless for anything but XP in AD&D, given the lack of magic shops or anything else worth buying, so it didn't matter, anyway.

The modules G1, G2, amd G3 specifically said characters could level up between forays, which was contrary to AD&D's 'training' rule. Of course, in these modoles, characters really needed to level up to succeed.

 

[XO]

Duration

Already the big difference between 1E and 3E is evident: the rate of level gain, with 1E characters averaging 5th lvl after the 2 addies and the 3E team at 7th!

Also consider the length of actual playtime involved in each module / adventure....

Commercial adventures should actually state a rough estimate of hours devoted to completion.

The wholesale giant slaughter of G1-G3 in 1e did NOT amount to many levels for the characters involved.

 

[XO]

Afterthought, Speaker in Dreams

I was a player in my (short lived) co-DM campaign...

The other DM's idea was low-magic, stripped down adventurers, struggle to survive (as opposed to heroic struggle against forces of darkness)...

For Speaker, we got maybe 10% of treasure and moneys floating around the module. Sounds like we got taken on that one. I then ran an adventure of mine, with treasure mark below the 3E average (and slightly above what I would normally do).

Before he ran his next adventure / our next session (where I became player anew), he had removed all the bits and pieces that can make a game fun and provide ingenuity of usage (hey, it's tough to be brilliant when all you own is a dagger).

I quit ! As co-DM (since he didn't keep me in the loop and our styles were incompatible) and as player (out of sheer frustration).