Treated as Not Grappled

[Jeremy]

I know you can take a -20 to your checks to be treated as not grappled. But I thought I read something about how you can do that to two foes, in the case of say, a dragon, one in each claw and still be treated as not grappled for -40. Anyone else remember reading something like that?

Or know where it can be found?

 

[Artoomis]

You can only take the -20 thing with Improved Grab. If the creature can do this with more than one claw, for example, than it could use -20 to the grapple checks for each claw to be not considered grappled. See below.

Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

 

[mikebr99]

FEAR Half-Fiend Dire Krakens!

Mike

 

[Hypersmurf]

You can only take the -20 thing with Improved Grab.

Right. Although beware - some players may have read the FAQ where the Sage said "It only says that for Improved Grab, but really anyone can use that option".

Grr.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

Right. Although beware - some players may have read the FAQ where the Sage said "It only says that for Improved Grab, but really anyone can use that option".

Grr.

-Hyp.

It seems like a reasonable ruling to me. The list of possible grapple actions in the PHB isn't exhaustive.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It seems like a reasonable ruling to me. The list of possible grapple actions in the PHB isn't exhaustive.

But there is a description of the mechanics of Grappling in the PHB.

Improved Grab - a special ability all about grappling better - provides an additional option. It's something extra creatures with Improved Grab can do - that's why it's found in the ability description, not in the Grappling description.

It doesn't make sense to say "Oh, anyone can do that", any more than it makes sense to say anyone can attempt to start a grapple as a free action after a successful attack.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

But there is a description of the mechanics of Grappling in the PHB.

Improved Grab - a special ability all about grappling better - provides an additional option. It's something extra creatures with Improved Grab can do - that's why it's found in the ability description, not in the Grappling description.

It doesn't make sense to say "Oh, anyone can do that", any more than it makes sense to say anyone can attempt to start a grapple as a free action after a successful attack.

-Hyp.

Actually, I think it does make sense to say that it's a grapple manuever that wasn't mentioned in the PHB.

As I said, the list in the PHB is not the complete list of possible grapple actions or modifiers.

I can certainly imagine someone getting an lock on an opponent that only uses one arm, and leaves them effectively ungrappled. It would be very difficult, which is what the -20 represents.

Why does it make sense that only creatures with improved grab can do this? I don't think it does.

 

[Jeremy]

Well the dragon has snatch, which effectively gives it improved grab. And it's a great wyrm red, so it's grapple checks are in the 60's even after the -20 and it's currently snatched the paladin in one hand and the cleric in the other and is proceeding to ignore the ignoble attacks of the rest of us.

I coulda sworn I read something somewhere about massive creatures like this doing this maneuver (treating two opponents as grappled without being distracted by the grapple themselves), but I thought it boosted the penalty up to -40. Granted, at +33, he's still probably going to beat us but since we use the variant were freedom of movement grants a bonus to escape grapples equal to 10 plus 1 per 2 caster levels above 7 some of us have a +15 or so extra add in that might make the difference.