#### Elfcrusher

##### Legend

Done. If you click on a dot it dumps all the parameters and local variables to the console.

- Thread starter Elfcrusher
- Start date

Done. If you click on a dot it dumps all the parameters and local variables to the console.

Improvement: show debugger to see the output.

Next up: animate the transitions. Just because.

Next up: animate the transitions. Just because.

Done.Next up: animate the transitions. Just because.

You hit on a 3+, because you awesome, and you crit on a 19+. You have trivantage on all attacks.

You hit 99.9% of your attacks (!) with trivantage.

Method 1: Use sneak attack on first hit regardless.

Method 2: Make first attack. If it is a crit, use sneak attack. If not, save it for possible second attack.

Method 1 gives you 0.271271 sneak attack crits, 0.999999 sneak attack hits (or better), 0.542 crits and 1.98 hits.

Method 2 gives you 0.468559 sneak attack crits and 0.999729 sneak attack hits, 0.542 crits and 1.98 hits.

Method 2 gives you better DPR, clearly.

Basically, method 2 is when you are so certain of

Method 1 is when your chance of missing on 2nd attack is high enough compared to your chance of hitting on 2nd attack that if you can unload your sneak attack on a mere hit, you should do it.

You should use method 2 when miss chance < crit chance basically.

Crit chance with Champ 3 is 0.271, without is 0.142625. With trivantage, those miss rates correspond to a 14+ (.65^3=27.45% miss chance) and a 12+ to hit (.55^3 = 16.64% miss chance) respectively.

Ah, now I see what you mean. I misunderstood.

You hit on a 3+, because you awesome, and you crit on a 19+. You have trivantage on all attacks.

You hit 99.9% of your attacks (!) with trivantage.

Method 1: Use sneak attack on first hit regardless.

Method 2: Make first attack. If it is a crit, use sneak attack. If not, save it for possible second attack.

Method 1 gives you 0.271271 sneak attack crits, 0.999999 sneak attack hits (or better), 0.542 crits and 1.98 hits.

Method 2 gives you 0.468559 sneak attack crits and 0.999729 sneak attack hits, 0.542 crits and 1.98 hits.

Method 2 gives you better DPR, clearly.

Basically, method 2 is when you are so certain ofhitting, a mere hit on your first attack isn't worth burning your sneak attack for.

Method 1 is when your chance of missing on 2nd attack is high enough compared to your chance of hitting on 2nd attack that if you can unload your sneak attack on a mere hit, you should do it.

You should use method 2 when miss chance < crit chance basically.

Crit chance with Champ 3 is 0.271, without is 0.142625. With trivantage, those miss rates correspond to a 14+ (.65^3=27.45% miss chance) and a 12+ to hit (.55^3 = 16.64% miss chance) respectively.

The risk, as you point out, is that you then miss. And if the reason you have (tri) advantage is that you’re coming out of stealth, then your second attack would be normal.

Still, this is interesting. I think I’ll add it as an option.

Doesn't seem to increase dpr. With trivantage on the second attack against lower armor classes it seems to make no difference. Against higher ACs, or without trivantage on the second attack, it's a decrease in dpr.

Possible I implemented the logic incorrectly, of course, but it was a pretty straightforward change.

So 20 dex +6 proficiency (+11 to hit) against AC 14 (hit on a 3+).

Level 20, Champ 3/Rogue 17, twf style.

99.9% hit chance. I'll call that 1.0 because lazy.

Your attack deals 1d6+5 damage, offhand 1d6+5, plus 9d6 sneak attack damage.

Base is 11d6+10 = 48.5 damage. You have a 27.1% crit chance for another 10d6 or +9.485, sum to 57.985 DPR, and an offhand 27.1% crit chance for +0.9485 DPR, a total of 58.9335 DPR.

With crit fishing your sneak attack crit chance becomes 0.468559, for 14.7596085 DPR, plus 0.542 * 3.5 = 1.897 from weapon crits, totaling to 65.1566085 DPR.

You had Champ 3/Rogue 17 at 58.9 DPR (matching) AND Rogue 20 with crit fishing at the same.

So your math seems off. (a) because I think I'm right, and (b) because you aren't showing a change.

I neglected a 0.002 miss chance, but that won't make that much of a difference.

...

Ok used your debugger. Your crit fishing is not using SA on the main hand if it crits.

That costs you a bit of DPR.

...

Also you are missing auto-hit on a crit.

Level 20, Champ 3/Rogue 17, twf style.

99.9% hit chance. I'll call that 1.0 because lazy.

Your attack deals 1d6+5 damage, offhand 1d6+5, plus 9d6 sneak attack damage.

Base is 11d6+10 = 48.5 damage. You have a 27.1% crit chance for another 10d6 or +9.485, sum to 57.985 DPR, and an offhand 27.1% crit chance for +0.9485 DPR, a total of 58.9335 DPR.

With crit fishing your sneak attack crit chance becomes 0.468559, for 14.7596085 DPR, plus 0.542 * 3.5 = 1.897 from weapon crits, totaling to 65.1566085 DPR.

You had Champ 3/Rogue 17 at 58.9 DPR (matching) AND Rogue 20 with crit fishing at the same.

So your math seems off. (a) because I think I'm right, and (b) because you aren't showing a change.

I neglected a 0.002 miss chance, but that won't make that much of a difference.

...

Ok used your debugger. Your crit fishing is not using SA on the main hand if it crits.

That costs you a bit of DPR.

...

Also you are missing auto-hit on a crit.

Last edited:

Yup just realized that while thinking about this over dinner. I’ll fix later.So 20 dex +6 proficiency (+11 to hit) against AC 14 (hit on a 3+).

Level 20, Champ 3/Rogue 6, twf style.

99.9% hit chance. I'll call that 1.0 because lazy.

Your attack deals 1d6+5 damage, offhand 1d6+5, plus 9d6 sneak attack damage.

Base is 11d6+10 = 48.5 damage. You have a 27.1% crit chance for another 10d6 or +9.485, sum to 57.985 DPR, and an offhand 27.1% crit chance for +0.9485 DPR, a total of 58.9335 DPR.

With crit fishing your sneak attack crit chance becomes 0.468559, for 14.7596085 DPR, plus 0.542 * 3.5 = 1.897 from weapon crits, totaling to 65.1566085 DPR.

You had Champ 3/Rogue 17 at 58.9 DPR (matching) AND Rogue 20 with crit fishing at the same.

So your math seems off. (a) because I think I'm right, and (b) because you aren't showing a change.

I neglected a 0.002 miss chance, but that won't make that much of a difference.

...

Ok used your debugger. Your crit fishing is not using SA on the main hand if it crits.

That costs you a bit of DPR.

...

Also you are missing auto-hit on a crit.

- A data series for full fighter (Champion)
- An option for dual rapiers

(I'd still rather play the rogue, though.)

P.S. What if you were half-Elf, but the non-Elf half was Orc? Then you'd be half-Elf

If your chance to crit in later parts of the turn is greater than your chance to miss, and you hit, you should save sneak attack for a later crit.

Elven accuracy Champion 3 Rogue 17 can really cause pain that way. Or xbe ss champ 5 rogue 15 (3 attacks/round with advantage is 62% crit chance per round (1-.9^(3*3)), and 0.81 average crits/round.

Yes that’s the “crit fishing” option.

If your chance to crit in later parts of the turn is greater than your chance to miss, and you hit, you should save sneak attack for a later crit.

Elven accuracy Champion 3 Rogue 17 can really cause pain that way. Or xbe ss champ 5 rogue 15 (3 attacks/round with advantage is 62% crit chance per round (1-.9^(3*3)), and 0.81 average crits/round.

Not currently set up for Champ 5 rogue 15 but maybe I’ll add that next.