TROLL POLL #1: d20 Golden Era or Glut?

[WayneLigon]

I'm in my happy spot. I buy just a few things that have enough of what I want, or can use. To date those are:

1. Seven Cities
2. Midnight campaign book
3. The various 'Path of' books (Path of the Sword, Path of Magic, etc)
4. Mutants and Masterminds, Freedom City and Time of Crisis
5. The WOTC splatbooks
6. The Green Ronin 'Witch' book

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I would agree that there needs to be some freshness and innovation, but things like the "xp for ability things" are just not functional and feels entirely tacked on.

And this is where we differ. I am a hard won convert from point based systems, and anything that allows character 'power' to be more uniquly distributed rather than slotted into the same mold level after level makes the game that much better for me.

In my new game, for which I am using both guildcraft and prestige race rules, I have given the players a starting XP amount to distribute within reason. XP will be distributed evenly, and a running total kept so that new players can enter at the same XP, again, used for pure levels, or spilt into perks as they choose. Sure it might be a problem in some games, but I'm not throwing it in at random, I'm using it to expand the options of the game.

XP for abilities is entirely functional if you judge a characters power level by total XP usage, including powerful magic items... If you are foolish enough to give extra XP to a "5th level character" with 2 levels worth of XP spend on guilds, races, wish delivered stat boosts and homemade magic items because he's "unequal" with a 7th level party, this is a mistake. But not a problem with the options, IMHO.

Kahuna burger

 

[Psion]

Originally posted by Kahuna Burger
XP will be distributed evenly, and a running total kept so that new players can enter at the same XP, again, used for pure levels, or spilt into perks as they choose.

and...
XP for abilities is entirely functional if you judge a characters power level by total XP usage, including powerful magic items... If you are foolish enough to give extra XP to a "5th level character" with 2 levels worth of XP spend on guilds, races, wish delivered stat boosts and homemade magic items because he's "unequal" with a 7th level party, this is a mistake. But not a problem with the options, IMHO.

So, what you seem to be saying here is that it works if you jimmy around the rest of the system to accomodate it. Well, that may be the case, but the necessity to do so is a problem with the options. If the systems were well written, they would dovetail with the existing rules.

For example, prestige races might have worked better if they came with an "ECL" modifier. Fairies were oh so close to getting this right but oh so far away. They had the idea of incremental ECL modifiers for abilities in the races in the same chapter as a number or prestige races... but they never really explain whether or how the ECL modifier is worked into your class and level.

But let me tell you about my experience. After having experienced 2e and 2.5e, in which you had to jimmy things around to get them to work, I am loath to jimmy things around just to get them to work. I prefer rules that take the implications into consideration, and find in the long run they are MORE accomodating to player's desires since they don't have to require the GM intervention to implement a new concept that they have.

I think the greatest benefit of d20 over prior edition official supplements is that the former is not canon and therefore easily ignored.

 

[Arnwyn]

BAB is one of the stickier points of the d20 system; I am surprised that no d20 game has ditched BAB and made weapons skills. Wouldn't work for a D&D targeted supplement, but would work for a d20 game.

And *that*, my friend, is a nice little ruleset called "FUZION". (And, incidentally, far superior for certain genres outside of D&D/fantasy.)

 

[JeffB]

While it's nice to have so much stuff available, and I check out everything I can find, sadly I find most d20 products sub-par and/or nearly useless for my campaigns/tastes.

I have 3 companies that I buy D20/D&D items from on a fairly regular basis and that includes the WOTC products (though the number of WOTC product purchases have been very low for the past 1.5 to 2 years)

The other two companies are the only ones who seem to feel the same way about what consitutes "Good D&D" as I do..at least on a consistent basis.

I do have a product here and there from other companies that were purchased on the product's individual merit but that is a rare occurence.

I hate to see anyone go out business, but IME, there are only about a dozen companies or so CONSISTENTLY producing good D20 products (regardless of whether I find the product useful or not), and I'd prefer to see most of the D20 cpublishers go the way of the do-do, and make some more shelf space for the really good stuff. A bit harsh perhaps, but I feel there's alot of D20 garbage being put out month after month that keeps stores from stocking a wider variety from the better companies, as well as many good non-D20 products.

 

[Psion]

And *that*, my friend, is a nice little ruleset called "FUZION".

FUZION has classes and levels?

No, that's not FUZION.

I don't mind FUZION, mind you*, but there are far more differences than this. Some of which I was painfully reminded of when reading Victoriana.

* - Aside to say that Champions the New Millenium was a travesty of the highest order. BGC was cool, though.

 

[Crothian]

The other two companies are the only ones who seem to feel the same way about what consitutes "Good D&D" as I do..at least on a consistent basis.

So, what companies are those?

I've found Fantasy Flight Games to be the closest to how I game, but Mongoose, Bastion, AEG, Green Ronin, MEG, and so many others still do great products. The problems is finding them.

Take Sacred Ground by Atlas. This book has four holy sites fully fleshed out. Each one fits into my vision of how I run things perfectly. But it is not a book I normally would have looked at. I think there is a good amount of good stuff out there, it's just hard to find what fits each person.

 

[Arnwyn]

FUZION has classes and levels?

Not according to the portion of your post that I chose to quote. I was just responding to the weapon skill idea. (IMO, virtually everything else is pretty darn close. Remember, the d20 mechanic is ripped wholesale from FUZION: roll+skill+stat vs. DC...)

(Though FUZION *could* have levels with nary a couple of strokes of a pencil - my futuristic FUZION campaign does, and it took me all of a couple of minutes while at the office to add them it, it's that easy. Though FUZION certainly, and thankfully, does *not* have classes.)

Oh, and to get back on topic - I totally agree with JeffB's comments above (I, too, have just 3 companies including WotC that I regularly buy from).

 

[Crothian]

Oh, and to get back on topic - I totally agree with JeffB's comments above (I, too, have just 3 companies including WotC that I regularly buy from).

So, same question he got: Which ones?

 

[Arnwyn]

So, same question he got: Which ones?

Wizards of the Coast (about 70% of their releases, 100% of their FR stuff), Necromancer Games (*all* their products), and AEG (all their L5R/Rokugan stuff).

Companies that I *have* bought more than one product from:
- MEG (Foul Locales and Guilds & Adventurers)
- Green Ronin (everything Freeport, plus their two fiend books)

And that's it.