Tropes that need to die


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"I predict that one day (hopefully soon) it will be against the Law to dub the players 'Chosen' or in any way involve prophecy in the game." --The Oracle at Del Fuego.

Having the PC's be "The Predicted Saviors" is boring and can be an excuse for them to do any stupid thing they want. "Sure, we killed the Queen and stole from the Royal Treasury, but what are they going to do? We're 'the Chosen Ones.'"
 

That's not accurate, historically speaking. Kings could and did come up with alternatives to the Church's hierarchy, to include abducting popes, installing their own men as bishops, murdering clergy, declaring themselves local pope, et cetera. For example.
In Early Modern France, the conflict between the Gallicans who took the king - "His Most Christian Majesty" - as the head of the Church in France and the ultramontanists who believed that all Catholics were subservient to the Pope first and foremost was sharp and divisive.
 

I'm not sure which I've read is actual REH.

That makes sense. A lot of the pastiche things are horrible.

Also, not only did I somehow miss the post you quoted, but I also apparently failed to have read the stories it refers to.

However, if X is mundane, and X is magically made into a god for a brief period, then X becomes briefly non-mundane.....but that doesn't mean X was not mundane to begin with, or not mundane again afterwards.

Likewise, a mundane fighter can have a wizard cast Strength on him, without that meaning that fighters per se are not mundane.

Conan was crucified and lived. That's just about that.

It might interest some in this thread that, rather than simply some uneducated hack, REH was a meticulous researcher. The story of Conan's survival of crucifixion was not something pulled out of the air -- it was based off of REH's research. To be more precise, it was based off of accounts from the real world.....and, unless you are willing to credit the real world with containing magical fighters, that's (as the man says) just about that. :D



RC
 

And while we're on the subject of Conan being realistic in the REH version, I believe that in The Jewels of Gwahlur he reads a scroll in an ancient, dead, and largely forgotten language. Something many, many scholars would love to have the ability to do.

Edit: The rocketry takes place in the chronologically earliest of the Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories before the two ever met. I can't remember which it was - I've only got it as an anthology edition.

Edit 2: Meticulous researchers sometimes make some of the most unbelievable claims - see the "That's unrealistic retort thread". We had to stop a game once for google when one of my characters did some rapid EVA without a space suit (and fell unconscious after 30 seconds despite being back in the airlock) and I claimed that her skin-tight clothing was protecting her from many of the problems of space and she wouldn't get that cold (no conduction or convection to speak of).
 
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I would really like to see the "random band of misfits thrown together by chance" trope, if not die, at least get scaled back a WHOLE lot. It would be nice if gaming advice focused on creating parties rather than individuals. IMO, it would solve a whole host of table issues.

Cheers! In every group I've been in, characters are usually generated indepedently.

FATE has a great way of dealing with this, even giving slight mechanical benefits for it.
 

And while we're on the subject of Conan being realistic in the REH version, I believe that in The Jewels of Gwahlur he reads a scroll in an ancient, dead, and largely forgotten language. Something many, many scholars would love to have the ability to do.
"...Scowling, his lips unconsciously moving as he struggled with the task, he blundered through the manuscript, finding much of it untranslatable and most of the rest of it obscure..."

Umm, not exactly.
 

And while we're on the subject of Conan being realistic in the REH version, I believe that in The Jewels of Gwahlur he reads a scroll in an ancient, dead, and largely forgotten language. Something many, many scholars would love to have the ability to do.

You mean this part?

REH said:
Remembering something, the Cimmerian drew forth the roll of parchment he had taken from the mummy and unrolled it carefully, as it seemed ready to fall to pieces with age. He scowled over the dim characters with which it was covered. In his roaming about the world the giant adventurer had picked up a wide smattering of knowledge, particularly including the speaking and reading of many alien tongues. Many a sheltered scholar would have been astonished at the Cimmerian's linguistic abilities, for he had experienced many adventures where knowledge of a strange language had meant the difference between life and death.

The characters were puzzling, at once familiar and unintelligible, and presently he discovered the reason. They were the characters of archaic Pelishtic, which possessed many points of difference from the modern script, with which he was familiar, and which, three centuries ago, had been modified by conquest by a nomad tribe. This older, purer script baffled him. He made out a recurrent phrase, however, which he recognized as a proper name: Bit-Yakin. He gathered that it was the name of the writer.

Scowling, his lips unconsciously moving as he struggled with the task, he blundered through the manuscript, finding much of it untranslatable and most of the rest of it obscure.

He gathered that the writer, the mysterious Bit-Yakin, had come from afar with his servants, and entered the valley of Alkmeenon. Much that followed was meaningless, interspersed as it was with unfamiliar phrases and characters. Such as he could translate seemed to indicate the passing of a very long period of time. The name of Yelaya was repeated frequently, and toward the last part of the manuscript it became apparent that Bit-Yakin knew that death was upon him. With a slight start Conan realized that the mummy in the cavern must be the remains of the writer of the manuscript, the mysterious Pelishti, Bit-Yakin. The man had died, as he had prophesied, and his servants, obviously, had placed him in that open crypt, high up on the cliffs, according to his instructions before his death.

Again, if that seems like a magical ability to you, my ability to read Shakespeare must seem equally magical, because I can get far more out of English from Shakespeare's time than Conan can get out of an older version of a modern language he knows. Heck, I can get more out of Chaucer! And perhaps as much from some even older versions of the English tongue.

I also note that REH remarks upon Conan's ability as unusual: "Many a sheltered scholar would have been astonished at the Cimmerian's linguistic abilities".

However, scholarship is not a magical ability, AFAICT. It is something many people -- esp. those familiar only with non-REH or modified-REH work -- might be surprised to see associated with Conan, however!

The full story is available here: Conan - Jewels of Gwahlur

Edit: The rocketry takes place in the chronologically earliest of the Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories before the two ever met. I can't remember which it was - I've only got it as an anthology edition.

I would be interested in reading that story, after which it would be easier to judge whether or not Fafhrd per se has fantastic qualities.


RC
 
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Also, not only did I somehow miss the post you quoted, but I also apparently failed to have read the stories it refers to.

The rocket-jump happens in "The Snow Women", one of the later stories written but essentially the youngest we've ever seen Fafhrd. In the course of the story he also forces his way out of magical bindings and kills swordsmen considerably older and more experienced than himself. None of this is impossible without magic, mind, but neither is it presented as him being lucky. If you were to use a level-based system, the best way to emulate Fafhrd would either be to rule "he gets to start at 3rd level even when it's chronologically the first adventure he's ever been on" to model his exceptional quality, or you'd want to use a system where 1st level for a PC is heroic notably above and beyond the average man-at-arms.

The god thing is arguable: Fafhrd claims he was temporarily Issek during the (pretty impressive) events of "Lean Times In Lankhmar," but there's no proof -- in fact, from what we know of Fafhrd it's entirely possible he pulls off the climactic scene based on sheer Fafhrdness. After all, he breaks his own sword over his knee in what's simply a throwaway line early in the story (though he does cut himself badly in the process). It's a little more overtly supernatural later on in Swords and Ice Magic, but in both cases the implication is that Fafhrd is so awesome that he gets close enough to godliness that the gods begin to choose him as an aspect.

I love the Lankhmar books. But part of their appeal is that the heroes are clearly fantastic (though not magically enhanced), but with approachable personalities. The dichotomy of these guys who are clearly capable of scaling incredible mountains and riding into Death's realm to swipe his mask but can also be totally bilked by a pretty face -- it's hilarious, as intended.

However, if X is mundane, and X is magically made into a god for a brief period, then X becomes briefly non-mundane.....but that doesn't mean X was not mundane to begin with, or not mundane again afterwards.

Fafhrd isn't made of magic, but he is a good ways from mundane -- which is kind of the point. A first-level fighting man from OD&D is several steps weaker than Fafhrd as we've ever seen him, even as a youth.

I have to agree with ProfessorCirno: death to the trope that fighters and their ilk should be non-magical and non-fantastic. It may model Peregrin Took, but it's crap at Fafhrd or Orlando or Jason.
 

You know I'm pretty sure there's more to the wizard's spell list than Fireball and Lightening Bolt.

Offhand, Contact Other Plane seems like it might be useful in a court setting, along with the various glyph and sigil trap spells.

Yep there are. A court cleric has some offensive power to throw around, can buff better than a mage, and can heal which a mage cannot do at all.

Contact another plane < Commune - I would rather talk to a deity I trust than some random Outer Plane creature, but that is just me.

There are also those awesome Glyphs of Warding, so a cleric can lay down some awesome security spells as well.
 

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