Tropes that need to die

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

Tropes I'd like to die (that I can think of at the moment):

* Morality assigned by biology or type of being.

* Objective morality.

I know why they exist (why people want them, anyway), but feel like I can get all the same fun without them. I don't really expect anyone to give them up, just wishing.


One that I do want to die is "Humans are the most adaptable/versatile/varied/badass race". The key word here is "the most": if humans are adaptable/versatile/varied/badass that doesn't bother me, it's only the statement of extremity. I feel like this restricts possibilities for finding new things, that even if you take it to possibly not be true that the bar's been set just a bit too high to make it worth bothering. Plus is smacks of "Chosen One" Syndrome: someone is going to be the center of attention for what they are innately, rather than something the accomplished by effort.

 

[Hussar]

I can agree with that Silvercatmonpaw2. But, the objective morality thing would be extremely difficult to remove from D&D. D&D is a game about murder. You go out, kill stuff and take their things. At it's most basic, without objective morality, you'd really need to rewrite how D&D is meant to be played.

After all, most of the things an average adventuring party does would be considered seriously immoral - looting tombs, descecration of the dead, large scale killing without any justifiable reason - and most adventuring parties would be considered mass murdering psychopaths without objective morality.

 

[rounser]

And this same thing is true of EVERY SINGLE creature in the Monster Manual. In a setting where you can actually change reality with a WISH, no one in the history of the setting has figured out how to breed creatures.

I just wish there was a setting or two out there that actually took D&D concepts into account. Eberron goes a long way towards this, although I think they didn't go far enough.

I think you're making a classic geek error.

We geeks like D&D and fantasy. But also -
We geeks like logic, and have a habit of extending logic to it's logical conclusions.

Problem: Extending fantasy to it's logical conclusion is like applying logic to romance, humour or music: It doesn't work, and you end up killing the magic that makes the whole thing tick in the first place. It takes us geeks a while to work this out, and generally a few girlfriends get annoyed before the penny drops. Meanwhile you're like Sheldon in Big Bang Theory - a guy who just doesn't get it if it can't be quantified logically.

The Eberron and Praemal settings of WOTC (both of which extend D&Disms that are game artifacts to their logical conclusions which to me is just ?#?@!$? whiskey tango foxtrot territory) was a major clue to me that D&D wasn't in Kansas anymore, Toto.

Luckily there was a backlash to this approach to the game, and we have the OGL, OSR, Pathfinder and Hackmaster to fall back on. Thank you Peter Adkison, Paizo and Kenzer for saving D&D from being restricted to one set of peoples' vision.

 

[Jhaelen]

The Eberron and Praemal settings of WOTC (both of which extend D&Disms that are game artifacts to their logical conclusions which to me is just ?#?@!$? whiskey tango foxtrot territory) was a major clue to me that D&D wasn't in Kansas anymore, Toto.

What's the Praemal setting? I don't think I've ever heard of it.

Luckily there was a backlash to this approach to the game, and we have the OGL, OSR, Pathfinder and Hackmaster to fall back on. Thank you Peter Adkison, Paizo and Kenzer for saving D&D from being restricted to one set of peoples' vision.

Well, lucky for you, I guess.

Myself I'm pretty tired of settings retreading territory that has already been explored a billion times before. I'd much rather see more settings and rpgs explore new territory. E.g. I really enjoy the 'Ecplise Phase' rpg, though it's of course not a fantasy setting.

'Mouse Guard' also seems intriguing (in both setting and game mechanics), but I've yet to get it, so I'm basing this purely on reviews and game reports, so far.

Finally, there are many ways to deal with a 'realistic' setting involving magic. E.g. I'm a big fan of Ars Magica. It provides convincing reasons why the world still (mostly) resembles the medieval earth we all know, despite there being extremely powerful magic users.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

But, the objective morality thing would be extremely difficult to remove from D&D.

I'm not talking about just D&D. I'm talking about tropes wherever they come up, and while D&D is the biggest offender it's not the only one.

After all, most of the things an average adventuring party does would be considered seriously immoral - looting tombs, descecration of the dead, large scale killing without any justifiable reason - and most adventuring parties would be considered mass murdering psychopaths without objective morality.

I don't see how that's all that difficult to change: alter adventures so you're not looting tombs and desecrating the dead. I agree that D&D can't handle altering the amount of killing being reduced without changing its resource-management method.

But I don't see why you need objective morality in order to decide that some opponents just need to be beat-down (I will admit that I don't like the automatically lethality of most systems, realism be damned): some people can still be both dangerous and unreasonable, meaning that a beat-down may be the only course of action. Plus there are enough people in real life who've done such horrible things that you don't need objective evil to have the scary opponents.

What I object to is objective morality, the idea that there is "one true way" backed up by the universe. I don't care if a setting presents obvious enemies (so long as it's not inherent).

But like I said, I'm not going to expect people to give it up.

 

[Hussar]

See, Rounser, I'm not sure why I can't have my cake and eat it too. I mean, the "traditional" fantasy settings have had it all their way for almost thirty years. Is it really so much to ask for a couple of settings that don't have their heads firmly planted in fantasy written by dead people?

 

[Raven Crowking]

See, Rounser, I'm not sure why I can't have my cake and eat it too. I mean, the "traditional" fantasy settings have had it all their way for almost thirty years. Is it really so much to ask for a couple of settings that don't have their heads firmly planted in fantasy written by dead people?

Of course it isn't. Go ahead and get writing!

(Or do you mean, Is it really so much to ask that others do the work so that I can enjoy it, even if it isn't what they really want/are interested in, or they don't sell all that well?? In that case, the answer shifts to "Of course it is." OTOH, you may wish to consider starting a patronage project to get the esoteric setting you want.)


RC

 

[Krensky]

Of course it isn't. Go ahead and get writing!

(Or do you mean, Is it really so much to ask that others do the work so that I can enjoy it, even if it isn't what they really want/are interested in, or they don't sell all that well?? In that case, the answer shifts to "Of course it is." OTOH, you may wish to consider starting a patronage project to get the esoteric setting you want.)


RC

I feel very confident in thinking that there's a lot of world building GMs here who'd like Hussar to pay our living expenses for a few months to write it for him. Some of us even do non-Tolkien worlds.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

The BBEG Trope

One thing that occours to me is to cease the idea that killing the leader of a group automatically destroys the whole group.

How about an Orc Horde with a group in charge? How about the BBEG has clones ready? Or the organisers of the conspiracy never meet face-to-face, but run events from several different cities. Killing one will only make the others more paranoid, and the internal promotions will throw up a replacement within a day or so. Much more interesting, surely.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I feel very confident in thinking that there's a lot of world building GMs here who'd like Hussar to pay our living expenses for a few months to write it for him. Some of us even do non-Tolkien worlds.

Hey! I'll be happy to work on any sort of world, if the price is right!