Trouble with Short Rest and Healing Word

[DreamChaser]

I'm confused why this is an issue: every character can use Second Wind out of combat too, can't they? So even without a cleric or warlord, each character can be to full HP in no less than 20 minutes.

With a cleric and warlord, this can generally be shrunk to 10 minutes.

It is supposed to be that way. Characters should be able to enter most encounters with near-to-full HP (though not full ability to heal themselves).

EDIT: On page 293 it says in the sidebar: After a short rest, you can spend as many healing surges as you like outside of combat. This whole discussion is moot.

DC

 

[Grabuto138]

My only objection is with respect to added calculation required to determine how many words are needed, who should get them in what order, how many extra rests are taken, and what state the party is in if they should be attacked.

I _really_ like the idea of 'we rest for 5 minutes and we're good to go' with a lot less fuss.

That said, I like the threat/surge type mechanic.

Maybe we are a bunch of liberals, but during a short rest I role a single die for my warlord. Whoever wants to applies this to whatever surges they use. Then it is back into the mix.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm confused why this is an issue: every character can use Second Wind out of combat too, can't they? So even without a cleric or warlord, each character can be to full HP in no less than 20 minutes.

Its not a question of players getting to heal to full. They can do that just fine without a cleric, and can do it with only 5 minutes of rest.

The potential (and please let me stress potential) issue is how "efficient" their surges are. At low levels, my surge might net me 7-10 hitpoints. With a high wisdom cleric (18) I can add about +7 or so more hitpoints on top of that, literally doubling the healing my surges do.

Since you only have so many surges in the day, the more efficient you are with them, the more encounters your party can handle.

 

[pukunui]

I'm confused why this is an issue: every character can use Second Wind out of combat too, can't they? So even without a cleric or warlord, each character can be to full HP in no less than 20 minutes.

With a cleric and warlord, this can generally be shrunk to 10 minutes.

It is supposed to be that way. Characters should be able to enter most encounters with near-to-full HP (though not full ability to heal themselves).

EDIT: On page 293 it says in the sidebar: After a short rest, you can spend as many healing surges as you like outside of combat. This whole discussion is moot.

DC

The reason it's an issue is because with Healing Word, you get extra healing beyond what a given healing surge would give you, which theoretically at least means you can stretch out your healing surges further.

That being said, I still think the problem here lies elsewhere than the out-of-combat use of Healing Word. These guys either have too many healing surges or they're not using them correctly.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Stalker0!

 

[DreamChaser]

Right...make sense...but i'm still not seeing the issue with this...

Let's follow the logic:
other than the sidebar, the only way for a character to heal him or herself with a healing surge (using a class power not withstanding) is Second Wind. If a character can heal him or herself up as much as desired after a combat, presumably it is by repeated uses of this ability because no other mechanism has been indicated.

So in the course of a short rest, a character can be assumed to second wind to the point of health (or as far as they wish to heal).

Because Second Wind is an encounter power it is the equivalent of using Healing Word twice. If there is no limit to the number of second winds out of combat there should be even less limit to Healing Word or Inspiring Word.

Of course, all of this reasoning hinges upon assumption that Second Wind is the only non-power / non-item way for a character to heal (I may be wrong). But if I'm right and give that there is no "5 minutes per surge" requirement for healing up after a rest, this issue becomes moot again as far as I'm concerned.

DC

 

[Drakona]

Dreamchaser, the issue is not time between encounters. It is encounters per day.

PCs don't use Second Wind to heal outside of combat, and never need longer than 5 mintues to fully heal if they're doing it under their own power. According to the PHB on p. 293 (Lower left beige box, first paragraph, third sentence), "After a short rest, you can spend as many healing surges as you like outside combat." That's it. Short rest, spend as many surges as you like, get back to full. It happens instantly at the 5 minute mark.

What's making people take longer "short" rests is trying to maximize the effectiveness of their healing surges with Healing Word. The issue comes into sharpest focus, I think, with rogues.

A rogue I ran in a test game started out with 7 healing surges and 24 hit points (so surges are worth 6). He was heavily encouraged, by the flanking rules, to get into melee, but poorly equipped, by the armor rules, to handle the punishment. So he lost most of his hit points most fights. Without a cleric in the party, he spent 2 - 3 healing surges per fight (either during or after), and so was really only good for 2 - 3 fights per day.

Now, suppose I'd had a cleric around. The cleric in my current group is run by a mathematician who has bent all of his analytical skills toward maximising the output of his healing. He often grants +12 or +15 to a healing surge, and is currently dredging Adventurer's Vault for items that give a stacking bonus to healing (and he's found a lot). Well . . . that would effectively double or triple that old rogue's healing surge value. Before, he was good for 2 - 3 encounters. After, he'd easily be good for 6. Maybe more, given how much free healing and temp hit points that particular cleric hands out. In practice, he'd never run out of surges. He'd reach a lull and stop to get dailies back much sooner.

Which, incidentally, is exactly what happens in my current party (the one with the awesome cleric). We never rest due to healing surges getting low. Never. We'll do 3 - 5 encounters per day, and even the most fragile characters won't use half their surges. We usually rest due to wanting dailies back (and free action points!), or sometimes because we've done all the encounters in the dungeon!

In my mind, this is an indication that using Healing Word during a rest--while legal--is too powerful. For resource management to be interesting, you should usually run out of those resources at the same time. But I'm just not willing to go 8 encounters (till my surges run out) on one or two dailies! And besides, what other class gets a "double the whole party's effectiveness all the time" type power? That's just craziness!

Don't get me wrong, I love that healing rocks now. But the out-of-combat Healing Words bothers me from a game design perspective. Of course, I love them as a player . . . And kudos to our munchkin cleric, for having found--right off the bat!--probably the most effective party buff in the game.

 

[Danceofmasks]

two words. Random encounter

grinding random encounters for xp and loot

 

[MrBeens]

Right...make sense...but i'm still not seeing the issue with this...

Let's follow the logic:
other than the sidebar, the only way for a character to heal him or herself with a healing surge (using a class power not withstanding) is Second Wind. If a character can heal him or herself up as much as desired after a combat, presumably it is by repeated uses of this ability because no other mechanism has been indicated.

So in the course of a short rest, a character can be assumed to second wind to the point of health (or as far as they wish to heal).

Because Second Wind is an encounter power it is the equivalent of using Healing Word twice. If there is no limit to the number of second winds out of combat there should be even less limit to Healing Word or Inspiring Word.

Of course, all of this reasoning hinges upon assumption that Second Wind is the only non-power / non-item way for a character to heal (I may be wrong). But if I'm right and give that there is no "5 minutes per surge" requirement for healing up after a rest, this issue becomes moot again as far as I'm concerned.

DC

You are confusing the encounter power second wind that lets you spend a healing surge and gain +2 to all defenses for a round using a standard action, with spend as many healing surges as you like out of combat as a free action.

Second wind lets you spend a healing surge, all spending of healing surges are not second winds.

 

[Oompa]

During their first adventure the party never slept between levels 1 and 2 and only rested once between levels 2 and 3. Is this what was intended?

You know healing surges are spent and only get replenished when you take an full rest huh?

Because 10+ encounters, without having to rest sounds weird..

 

[DreamChaser]

You are confusing the encounter power second wind that lets you spend a healing surge and gain +2 to all defenses for a round using a standard action, with spend as many healing surges as you like out of combat as a free action.

Second wind lets you spend a healing surge, all spending of healing surges are not second winds.

I am not confusing them. I am fully aware of this.

But the only listed ability the player's handbook that enables a character to heal themselves with a healing surge of their own volition is the Second Wind. All other situations where a character gets to heal from a healing surge are caused by powers or items. Thus, since no other mechanism is offered, I put forth that what the characters are doing is using their second winds. As I said in my last post, this is not demonstrated explicitly by the rules but is IMO a valid interpretation of the information available. Unless someone can point out another type of self-initiated non-class power and non-item power healing, I think its a decent rules lawyering.

I also know it is about encounters per day and the lengthening impact at levels 1-5 that the Cleric and Warlord abilities have on the number of healing surges required to heal up to full.

But also, the rules lawyering is unnecessary. To me it is really this simple:

If 2 more encounters per day is what you (the DM) wants at levels 1-5, then I think think it is valid to just let the PCs have the benefit of it for each healing surge. No harm, no fowl. Everyone benefits.

If you don't want the extra encounters or you want the PCs more drained after each encounter, don't allow it. Of course, not allowing it will just lead to the players trying to stretch out each rest until they have enough time to use the leader's healing abilities. This leaves the DM with two options: let it happen and plan for 15-20 minute short rests or constantly disrupt the long rests with encounters, which will result in trading 1-2 more encounters per day with 1-2 fewer encounters that matter (since you be throwing random encounters at them instead of the ones you planned).

Please don't take my rules lawyering for stupidity. I do get the issue. I just don't see why the issue is an issue.

DC