Troubles with players.

[Seirun]

Hi there, I have some problems with ma players and I'd like your help.

1. Resting. My party takes extended rest almost after every encounter. They even wanted to stash magic items with daily powers to one character a let only that one take the extended rest...

2. Whenever they are going somewhere, they are going in "total defense". I don't know if rules allow it - it's listed as "action in combat", but so is administering a potion...

3. Exploiting Astral Seal - The healing effect triggers on hit, so they keep bull rushing the last enemy until everyone is healed (since bull rush deals no damage, they do it until everyone is healed). I have ruled that the healing effect triggers only on damage...

4. When a player leaves session earlier, he gives all of his magic equipment to others... I'm thinking of making magic items "soulbound" (sorry for the WoW term, but it perfectly describes my intention).

Anyone had (have) same problems? What was your solution? I know I can rule against it, but I'd like to have some sort of support (am I doing the right thing?)...

 

[Obryn]

Hi there, I have some problems with ma players and I'd like your help.

It sounds like you have some abusive players, sadly. And you're letting them do it. They will keep doing it until you put your foot down. You run the game, but you're also a player. If you are not having fun, tweak the game until both you and your players are.

1. Resting. My party takes extended rest almost after every encounter. They even wanted to stash magic items with daily powers to one character a let only that one take the extended rest...

The best way to fix this is not to give them the opportunity. They can't take an extended rest if you don't let them. Have wandering groups of monsters disrupt them.

Alternately, implement the "Tweet Rule" and require 2 milestones (4 encounters) before an extended rest. It's what I do, informally - I make exceptions at major plot points.

If neither of these work, throw Level + 3 or higher encounters against them every time. Otherwise, you'll never challenge them.

2. Whenever they are going somewhere, they are going in "total defense". I don't know if rules allow it - it's listed as "action in combat", but so is administering a potion...

If you allow it, this will slow down their exploration, at best. I, personally, wouldn't allow it - this amounts to excessive paranoia and combat-readiness at every single moment. Also, as a general rule, I don't allow true combat actions out of combat - no readied actions or anything of that nature. They can take Total Defense once the dice hit the table. Total defense doesn't mean anything if you don't have any idea what you're defending against.

3. Exploiting Astral Seal - The healing effect triggers on hit, so they keep bull rushing the last enemy until everyone is healed (since bull rush deals no damage, they do it until everyone is healed). I have ruled that the healing effect triggers only on damage...

(1) Astral Seal only heals the first ally who hits before the end of your next turn. The whole party doesn't get to use it.

(2) Bull Rush isn't the best way to hit, once you get to higher levels. It's a Strength vs. Fortitude attack, and they don't get any magic item or weapon proficiency bonuses. Let them - they'll do better with a real attack.

4. When a player leaves session earlier, he gives all of his magic equipment to others... I'm thinking of making magic items "soulbound" (sorry for the WoW term, but it perfectly describes my intention).

Given the daily magic item use limitations, I'm not sure what the point of this would be. Remember that players can only use 1 magic item daily power per milestone at Heroic, 2 at Paragon, and 3 at Epic. This resets on an extended rest. Also, only one character can use a given item's Daily power per day. Enforce these rules, and this issue disappears.

Also, what happens to the departing player's PC? Make the character stick around if it's becoming abusive! Someone else would have to run them, alongside their own character.

Anyone had (have) same problems? What was your solution? I know I can rule against it, but I'd like to have some sort of support (am I doing the right thing?)...

Not for quite some time.

-O

 

[UngeheuerLich]

@astral seal: punish the divine character... let astral seal fail if the cleric worships a non evil god... i believe such a behavior receives no blessing... (bag of rats rule in DMG)

@extended rest: yes, random encounters after they have spent all their dailies will make them more careful... (monsters don´t wait days to get slaughtered... only one extended rest per day per rules)

@sharing magical items... kill the now helpless character when opportunity arises...

@total defense: why not. But only for short times... (like going into a room prepared)

and if everyhing fails, design a fair encounter... an encounter with an evil party of equal level using player rules... and use full nova rounds on helpless player, of course starting in full defense...

reason: monsters don´t have dailies because it would be unfair to have them ready for the only combat when the players encounter them... and the system is designed around the assumption that you can´t go full party nova...

 

[Amaroq]

1. Resting - don't let your encounters be "static", just waiting for the PC's to get to them. Make your encounters "dynamic", mobile entities. Invading the BBEG's lair to recapture the McGuffin? Once you've made contact with the enemy, if you take an extended rest anywhere near it, he hits you with a counter-attack .. or simply flees the lair with the McGuffin. Whoops, opportunity to capture him lost.

The DM's in both of my current campaigns do a really good job of not letting the players rest - and making it the player's choice, based on environmental circumstances. There's something stronger than the party searching for/chasing the party .. there's a deadline pressure on the "goal" .. the BBEG with the McGuffin is getting away .. Seriously, both campaigns have had players run out of healing surges before finding a place safe enough to take an extended rest, and the players knew that taking an extended rest anywhere short of an actual safe location was asking for an unbalanced encounter whose intent was a TPK.

2. "Total defense" is a combat action. You can't just walk around in "total defense" all the time.

3. Why does the last enemy put up with this behavior? Have them run away. Or drink a healing potion. Or recharge a vicious power. Or give a healing potion to the nastiest monster fallen on the field, assuming nobody has coup-de-grace'd him. Perhaps solve 3. and 1. by escaping (double run action) and calling for help. Beyond that, you're well within your rights to nerf or otherwise nuke a power that's getting abused, and even to remove a magic item which is getting abused.

4. How does the group explain it when a player leaves a session early? Rule your solution into that explanation. Soul-bound works for me .. but heck, so does, "Okay, session over".

How about "So, you're going to give up your armor and ...?" ... I mean, if the guy is just sitting there out of sight of the party, attack him with a solo encounter. When he comes back next session, make him fight the solo encounter without the magic items he gave up.

Btw, I don't think there's a problem if the guy carrying the Bag of Holding that has all their odd equipment hands it off to somebody who is still playing ... but it is a problem if they're optimizing distribution of armor, weapons, neck slot items, etc.

 

[Mengu]

You can only take extended rest once per 24 hour period. Any kind of time sensitive event or hostile environment will prevent abusing extended rests.

I would not allow full defense outside of combat.

For Astral Seal shenanigans, use bag of rats rule. The last enemy (who is probably trying to surrender or run away) is not a credible threat. Astral seal doesn't work.

When a player leaves, does the character also leave? Not sure how you handle this, but if the character stays, he's going to need his equipment, or he will die. If he leaves, he becomes an NPC, you decide his actions. You decide if he's taking his equipment with him or not.

It sounds like you need to put your foot down a bit more. While there is a lot of encouragement for saying "yes", saying "no" is also a very essential part of DM'ing.

 

[1of3]

Don't try to "solve problems" ingame or by changing the rules. The first thing to do is talking with your fellow players. Ask why they do these things that you perceive as problems. They may have their reasons.

Perhaps they thing it is not fair, if the absent player removes those items, which they found as a group, from the game. Then what they are doing is very reasonable.

If they want to play as effective as possible, resting as often as possible is the right thing to do. They would probably stop, if their characters were in a hurry. And you may want to put them in a hurry once in a while. But before that, you should explain your point of view to your fellow players: That the game will be more exciting and rewarding, when not everything is safe.

And so on.


I wonder, though, what did they say, when you "changed the rules" on how Astral Seal works. Did they accept it? Because it would be quite simple to do it all over again with unarmed attacks.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Talk to your players and tell them you don't want this behaviour. You are trying to make a fun game, and a fun game has a certain amount of danger. No danger = no fun. Try to make them see the spirit of the game instead of rules to abuse.

If they don't think your argument about going for the spirit of the game you can show them that it isn't really hard for a DM to "win" the game. Just run a level +4 encounter followed by level +4 encounter ambushes until TPK. Try to explain the spirit of the game to your players again.

If they still don't get it, it's probably time for you to find new players or another game.

 

[Seirun]

Thanks for your answers. The problem is I say "yes" too much. I don't want to spoil the fun... But maybe I should draw a line somewhere.

@The leaving player - I just make the character disappear. It's not much RP, I know, but three of our five players sometimes have to leave a session without warning (work issues), so it's the easiest way. And before they leave (their characters disappear), they divide their items between the remaining characters. They do not give up their weapons (or amors), but the "utility" items, like amulet of protection.

@Resting - I know I can send harder monsters against them when they try to rest, but I don't want to kill them. Since I spent fair ammount of time preparing the adventure, I don't want to end it by killing the party.

@Astral Seal: They usually cut off any escape routes the last enemy could possibly take, fighter uses his mark and tadaaa, healing fest begins. At least they usually get bored after 3-4 heals...

@Total defense - Yes, it's listed in combat actions, but I can't find a rule that says I can't use combat action outside combat. I like Obryn's "Total defense doesn't mean anything if you don't have any idea what you're defending against." I'll try to go with that.

 

[eriktheguy]

Hey, I do have a suggestion on the rest issue.

When my players dungeon crawl, I think about what the monsters in each room do when the hours wear on. Their party was in Keep on the Shadowfell and rested in the dungeon after wiping out most of the goblins.
One group of goblins they hadn't slain were those in the mines. When the miners went for the shift change, they noticed the room full of goblins meant to relieve them had been replaced by a room smeared from floor to ceiling with goblin bits. They then set out to hunt the players down and it resulted in combat before the players could rest.
Afterwards the players were able to finish their rest in peace.
This whole dungeon crawl was set to the backdrop of locating an ambush party that was going to intercept a caravan in 2 days, so they didn't have that much resting they could do anyways.

On the other hand, I am planning on having the characters take a long overland journey to a city in a few sessions, with no time contraints. They can take an extended rest after every encounter if they want to (it would be a good idea) without penalty.

The moral is this: if the players aren't rushed, then they have no reason NOT to rest. Don't get angry at them for resting all the time and decide to throw in a wandering monster to 'show them whose boss'. Rather decide on the pacing you want for an adventure before the PCs get there, and apply pressure accordingly. Let them decide how often to rest.

 

[1of3]

@Resting - I know I can send harder monsters against them when they try to rest, but I don't want to kill them. Since I spent fair ammount of time preparing the adventure, I don't want to end it by killing the party.

I'm not sure, if I get this right. Don't send monsters to prevent them from resting.

Put pressure on them. The virgin will be sacrificed in three days. House Lyrandar need the package before Monday. The villain is on the run, and if they heros rest, he will be in Thay before they are ready again.

You can interrupt the rest with encounters, but then do it in the proper old fashion: Make a random encounter table.