Troubles with players.

[JoeNotCharles]

They ignore any time limit I use. A merchant gave them a quest to bring him a crystal ball from near dungeon (time limit was three days, then he leaves for another city). They didn't care about the merchant leaving town, after an encounter on their way to the dungeon they took an extended rest. And when I reminded them that there is a time limit, the said like "Who cares, we need our daily powers. And we can always catch him later"...

Ok. So you gave them a mission, and they ignored it. Don't give them any treasure or quest XP. They failed. Their fault.

Can the PC handle the interrupted rest? One PC is on watch, the rest is sleeping... It seems to me like a sure way to kill them...

Why the hell are you coddling these people? It's much harded to kill a PC then you think it is. Do it like this:

- You can wear light armour when you sleep. Heavy armour is too uncomfortable so you can "sleep" but you don't regain powers or healing surges, because it wasn't restful enough. (Unless you're a warforged using component armour.)
- If the person on guard makes their Perception check by more than 5, you have enough warning to wake up and grab your weapons, and combat proceeds normally, except that most people aren't wearing heavy armour.
- If they make it by less than 5, they are awake but everyone who wasn't on guard begins the combat prone and dazed because they're still waking up
- If they miss it, the enemies gain surprise and the sleeping players are unconscious during the surprise round, then prone and dazed for the first round after that.

Being dazed for one round isn't going to kill anybody. Being unconscious for a round is going to put the PC's at a disadvantage, but it won't directly kill anyone unless you, the DM, choose to have the attackers move to the sleeping characters and coup-de-grace. Which, if they've ignored all your warnings about being in a dangerous area and possibly attacked during the night, is entirely appropriate.

Their actions have to have consequences. Deciding that constantly being at full strength is more important than hitting your deadline is a valid tactical choice. It's also the wrong one in many circumstances, so if they do that, they should fail.

 

[surfarcher]

Hi there, I have some problems with ma players and I'd like your help.

Ah challenging players. It's your job to train teach them - think of them like children. I haven't read all the responses yet but here's my thoughts...

All of this is solvable without houseruling IMHO.

1. Resting. My party takes extended rest almost after every encounter. They even wanted to stash magic items with daily powers to one character a let only that one take the extended rest...

Don't make your dungeons static! They might have space for a 5 or 15 or 60 minute rest ebtween encounters. But in most adventures there will rarely be a place where they can rest 6-8 hours uninterrupted. Sometime something is going to patrol along and find them, interrupting their rest. Start of by giving them a couple light hints - a "random" encounter 30-60 minutes into the rest. Then aother the same amount of time after that.

Make sure the encounters fit with the flavour of the dungeon, but make the first one something fairly unintelligent (e.g., some wild Dire rats). If they don't get the hint make the second one more intelligent monsters and make sure one of these escapes and raises the alarm.

2. Whenever they are going somewhere, they are going in "total defense". I don't know if rules allow it - it's listed as "action in combat", but so is administering a potion...

Total defence is a combat Standard Action. In other words anyone using it is putting all of their thoughts and effort into safely defending themselves.

Take them for a walk around a room sized area. Now get them to do the same walk in "total defence". See how slow that is? I suggest reducing movement of all party members to one plus racial bonus if they want to do this.

3. Exploiting Astral Seal - The healing effect triggers on hit, so they keep bull rushing the last enemy until everyone is healed (since bull rush deals no damage, they do it until everyone is healed). I have ruled that the healing effect triggers only on damage...

Again, don't make your encounters/dungeons static. I am guessing this won't continue after the monsters start responding realistically to what the PCs are doing. Have the creature run away or scream loudly and non-stop. Both will raise the alarm and bring the whole population of the dungeon down on the PCs heads.

4. When a player leaves session earlier, he gives all of his magic equipment to others... I'm thinking of making magic items "soulbound" (sorry for the WoW term, but it perfectly describes my intention).

A few things you can do...

First, match magic items to the receiving character. Award items that are only of benefit to the class/role of the character who gets it. This implicitly reduces this behaviour by reducing the usefulness of swapping.

Second, try to fill the PCs same equipment slots. So the Fighter has to take off his +2 Scale Armour to use the Paladin's +1 Plate Armour of whatever. That makes swapping pointless and a waste of time.

Lastly, counter metagaming like this with realism! The PC is still there! They don't magically disappear. They don't have those magic items that improve AC, attacks, etc. An ideal squishy for smarter monsters to target. Really this PC will need to be played as-is by the other players to survive, magic items and all.

Anyone had (have) same problems? What was your solution? I know I can rule against it, but I'd like to have some sort of support (am I doing the right thing?)...

Ah we all have problems with players form time to time. It's your job as DM to see the underlying faults in what metagaming players are doing and counter it subtly. Your responses need to be reasonable yet compelling. And you also have to be unafraid to say "hey I realised that last game xxx wasn't spot on. Instead of the creatures doing yyy they should have done zzz."

Hope that helps!

 

[Seirun]

Ok. So you gave them a mission, and they ignored it. Don't give them any treasure or quest XP. They failed. Their fault.

But they don't seem to care. They seemed like "Ok, we will just level a up a little later".

Why the hell are you coddling these people? It's much harded to kill a PC then you think it is. Do it like this:

- You can wear light armour when you sleep. Heavy armour is too uncomfortable so you can "sleep" but you don't regain powers or healing surges, because it wasn't restful enough. (Unless you're a warforged using component armour.)
- If the person on guard makes their Perception check by more than 5, you have enough warning to wake up and grab your weapons, and combat proceeds normally, except that most people aren't wearing heavy armour.
- If they make it by less than 5, they are awake but everyone who wasn't on guard begins the combat prone and dazed because they're still waking up
- If they miss it, the enemies gain surprise and the sleeping players are unconscious during the surprise round, then prone and dazed for the first round after that.

Being dazed for one round isn't going to kill anybody. Being unconscious for a round is going to put the PC's at a disadvantage, but it won't directly kill anyone unless you, the DM, choose to have the attackers move to the sleeping characters and coup-de-grace. Which, if they've ignored all your warnings about being in a dangerous area and possibly attacked during the night, is entirely appropriate.

I've already ruled that they can't take extended rest in heavy armor. Well, ok, I was afraid that catching the PCs asleep was a very huge disadvantage for them. I'll try that.

Their actions have to have consequences. Deciding that constantly being at full strength is more important than hitting your deadline is a valid tactical choice. It's also the wrong one in many circumstances, so if they do that, they should fail.

They think this way (at least I think they do): There's always enough XP to get to level 30. If we skip something, we will just level up later.

Yeah, the whole situation sort of sucks.
Clearly coming up with reasons and houserules and plot devices is not going to solve all your problems. It isn't these 5 issues ruining your experience, its the players' attitudes.
Lets be clear that enjoying yourself is the most important part of the game. If your players are having fun then the game is working (for them). If you can enjoy their munchkinly sessions, enjoy them and stop worrying. If you prefer a more serious, involved or mature experience...

That's why I'm asking for advice. I DO not enjoy these munchkinly sessions. I even told them to behave more realistically and "hero-like". But to no effect.

...you could try to convince your group that they are really missing out on the fun. Try to force some role playing (skill challenges work well) or have some npcs make idle chit chat with them. If they start to get to know the world as a realistic, interactive world, maybe they won't treat it like a video game.

I did that NPC thing... They tried to get some money/quest/whatever from that NPC. And when they realized it was "only a civilian", they just went away. The only interaction they are willing to do is "Hey, innkeeper, one room". But that's fine with me, I'm not a fan of long conversations either.

...they might not be interested in really playing DnD. In this case, find another group. This sucks if the group you play with is your closest friends. You could continue to DM short sessions for them occasionally while joining a mature group at your local hobby shop. Maybe your friends will notice how fun a mature game is and want to give it a shot.

I think they don't care what kind of game that is as long as it's fantasy RPG. I sometimes think that pen and paper version of WoW would be better for them.

... how old is your group? It might just be a matter of waiting for them to grow up, DnD just gets better with age in my experience.

18-20, with me being the oldest.

...you could just run monster mashes. Put the players in an arena against a bunch of monsters and have them fight. New monsters flood into the arena as the fight progresses. A single battle in the arena could be a few encounters linked together (and through some magic they recharge encounter powers and can spend surges at set points). They fully recover after battle, eliminating astral seal and extended rest abuse. They get magic items or cash doled out between battles and gain levels as this goes on. The characters aren't in contact between battles, so they can't pool items.
If your players really don't want story or realism, don't waste time preparing it for them.

Maybe putting them into arena with only fighting and looting is a good idea. If they like it, ok, it will save me a lot of time. And if they don't... Well, maybe they'll want to go back to the world outside...

Herein lies the problem. If you want the character to disappear for convenience sake, that's fine. But your players shouldn't be able to turn this convenience into a benefit, IMO.

I know, I just didn't think of a way they would exploit that. Maybe I should ask them why is THIER CHARACTER giving that item to someone else.

How hard are these fights? Are you maybe sending too-tough fights against them? What's the party level? Are you using the DMG XP guidelines for encounters?

They are level 3 now, and I use level 3-5 encounters. I have never used something beyond their level+2.

OK, I see the problem now. I don't know how this will work out in their favor if you're using level-appropriate foes... And so what if the Fighter marks him? More attacks = quicker death.

Fighter attacks the enemy unarmed, so he does not deal any significant damage. Then the cleric cast astral seal, and then the others decide who will (try to) hit the enemy. As the enemy, I can attack the defender or try to hit someone else (with -2 penalty).

I think there's a difference between "combat actions" and "actions you can take in combat."

For example, it's silly to argue you can't drink a potion outside of combat. That's an action that you can take in combat. On the other hand, bull-rushing, second wind, and total defense are combat-specific actions that really only have meaning in the middle of an encounter.

They just want to (ab)use the total defense for that +2 bonus incase something happened. The have never tried second wind out of combat... Thanks god... I don't like the picture of someone using second wind, going to total defense and then opening a door. I told them about that total defense crap (Opening chest in total defense, opening a door in total defense, pulling a lever in total defense..) and they were.. sort of upset I'd say. BTW, I don't use traps, because they don't have rogue (or anyone trained in thievery).

 

[ender_wiggin]

Some of this you can solve in game. Namely, in order to solve the extended rest problem, either (a) force them to keep going by preventing safe areas, (b) making each combat very difficult.

However, some of it is better suited to be solved out-of-game. I think it's important you talk to your players about what you have in mind for your game. If you start ruling that they can't do certain things that are technically legal, or start enforcing house rules that render their tactics obsolete, they might see it as an invasion of their fun rather than an effort to make it fun for everyone, DM included.

 

[Dredly]

To be honest if they want to ignore the DM rules and play however the hell they want regardless of what the DM says would have begative consequences.

for instance in the event of the merchant... if you knew they were going to blow it off I would switch it on them. they ride out to find the merchant, only to arrive and the caravan has been destroyed... ohh and WHO is coming over the hill at just that moment? Why its the local lord and 20 of his guard and they think your people are responsible... now what are they gonna do? Even better would be if they had just rushed in to "save" the wagons and killed all the guards who they thought were bandits, make it a tough battle too so when the soldiers get there they have nothing left

either RP it or get TPKed

I would also have some encounters written up for wandering battles. every time they rest when you don't want them too they get surprised by a gorup, even if its a single bear or a gorup of minions that they quickly destroy. it doesn't matter, they need to sleep for 6 hours and do nothing... they won't be doing that if they are fighting every time they lay down

 

[john112364]

It sounds to me as if your players have no respect for you and the time you put into your game. I have been in this situation before and the solution is simple, though tough to do: stop playing with them and find a new group. Easy to say, but hard to do. If talking to them doesn't seem to be working I don't see any other option.

 

[Chimera]

Part of the problem is that a lot of groups are merely Social Games, where a bunch of friends get together to kill things and take their stuff.

My last two groups, about five years apart, went down in flames because both groups of players decided that all they wanted to do was wander in circles, wait for something to attack them, then track it to it's lair. I was very specifically told by both groups (completely different people) that this was ALL that they wanted. I was told to stop making 5' wide tunnels even in the Kobold Lair, and make every tunnel 10' wide and perfectly straight. I was told flat out by one (previously intelligent) player that "We just want everything as simple as possible" - as if this was a good thing.

Things turned nasty, personally nasty, when I resisted and tried to tell them that this was no fun at all for me. To this day I do not have any contact with any member of either group (although admittedly, I'd been friends with most of the first group for something like 15 years and it was a combination of other things (including my divorce) over a long period of time that led to ending all of those friendships, not just the game.)


So the bottom line is that you need to judge whether or not this is simply a social game that your players want to play on the "Easy" setting, and whether or not you are willing to run that kind of game.

Because if this is all they want to do, you ain't going to change them.

 

[GeekKen]

Yeah, the whole situation sort of sucks.
Clearly coming up with reasons and houserules and plot devices is not going to solve all your problems. It isn't these 5 issues ruining your experience, its the players' attitudes.

Lets be clear that enjoying yourself is the most important part of the game. If your players are having fun then the game is working (for them). If you can enjoy their munchkinly sessions, enjoy them and stop worrying. If you prefer a more serious, involved or mature experience...

...If your players really don't want story or realism, don't waste time preparing it for them.

I completely agree. There is little you can do running your game if the players just want to run around and kill stuff. If this is what they want to do. Just go with it. Don't bother with a storyline.

I'd also add don't bother doling out treasure either. Nope... nothing. No gold. No magic items. If they just want a encounter grindfest, give them one.

If they want loot, give them a quest. Take that merchant looking for a crystal sphere. If they didn't bother getting back to the guy by the time needed, no treasure.

I'd do this for a session or two. Then sit down and talk with your players. Are they having fun? Tell them you are not. Tell them you want more of a story. Tell them you want to challenge them and are not looking to punish them at every second (do they feel they need every power/ability at the ready otherwise they will get a TPK?). If they are happy running an encounter grindfest, then you have to ask yourself if that is the type of game you want to run.

If not, don't. Just offer to pass the DM hat. Rotate your character into the group and just let the players pass the DM hat around the table.

 

[babinro]

One of my own house rules are that extended rests only recover hit points and healing surges. Daily powers along with magic item powers refresh every 4 encounters or when the DM declares enough time has passed (such as between adventures).

Many of the above points are great options to do as well. If you expect your players to rest as they have been despite the above houserule...just make each encounter a 'boss' like level encounter. Let them expend all daily's in encounters and make the best of it by sending waves of enemies. Consider using the DMG2 rules that recover encounter powers/daily's for these long term encounters.

Few encounters are fun if they challenge the party and you play with them. You don't always need large scale dungeons if they don't suit the party's play style.

If they want to total defense all day long and abuse those rules, I say just let them. As DM, you can always just DM up your attack rolls by +2 to overcome their abuse. They wont know the difference and everyone is happy.

Bull Rush and Astral Seal doesn't seem too bad. These powers will become increasingly weaker as you level up and people get better. The more creatures attacking the PC's the less time they have to 'waste' actions on minor hp gain. Monsters can get smart about it and start focusing on the healer when they realize their attacks keep getting negated by healing. This should hopefully lead to new tactics by the party.

 

[surfarcher]

Look it boils down to this...

If you don't like how they are behaving, tell them and/or stop them.

If they won't then make it clear they are diminishing your enjoyment.

And if it still continues? Pass the baton as DM and possibly even leave the group if it doesn't suit your own play style.

I posted some practical point-by-point within-the-rules suggestions at http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/271401-troubles-players-2.html#post5075077, but to implement them you will have to put your foot down a little.

Best of luck!