True 20 - Is it really Simpler?

[iwatt]

So, I'm an Iron Heroes fan. I really love playing with all the fiddly bits it provides.

Sadly, I look at my players and they already are overwhelmed by regular 3.5 D&D. So I shudder at what will happen if I actually try to make them play something even more complex. Just the though of them using token pools will probably lead to me managing that for them as well. :\

So I've decided to streamline. Since I don't want to reinvent the wheel, I've taken a look at the reviews and free-downloads for the different streamlined products. C&C doesn't "do it" for me because it seems a return to things I didn't like from previous editions (classes=archetypes, variable xp tables, etc..). True20 apparantly has the advantage of flexible classes. From the salespitch, it apparently also is very streamlined.

But the fact of the matter is that from my reading of the quickstart guide and the other free downloads at the True20 site, I don't see it as really simpler. So I basically have some questions I would really apreciate been answered by those experienced with the system.

1) The Damage and Fatigue saves seem more complex than hitpoint tracking. The variable modifiers and cross indexing between lethal and non-lethal status seems to be more work than simply substracting hp. Does it also introduce the "Death Spiral" effect typical of the old Storyteller system?

2) How simple is the Powers system? Is it balanced? Is the True Sorcery sorcerer a better fit?

Thanx.

Note: my players are great guys. It's just that 90% of them are Casual gamers and Storytellers, and I'm probably more of a Powergamer.

 

[bento]

I play with a group that is half D&D only, and half "up for anything" and we've played with the True20 rules once so far. I picked it up for the same reasons you're considering - combat was becoming too bogged down, and players were gravitating towards combat rather than a balance of combat and character interaction.

I'm always looking for something that's easy to run, but with lots of options for unique character creation and development. Streamlined is a good description for True20. I like it because if players are already familiar with D20 concepts and flow of combat, there's really no learning curve to convert over.

The quickstart guide doesn't do the game justice - it's primarily there to highlight some of the differences and what to expect in actual game play. I've handed it out to my players, who don't own the full rule book.

Damage tracking is fairly easy - download a copy of the character sheet and you'll see a small space on it where players track this. Everytime a player goes from one condition to the next, they simply check off the appropriate box.

Fatal vs. non-Fatal - when you're having a non-fatal fight (barroom brawl), you only use the top half of the condition tracker. When you're in fatal combat, you use both top and bottom.

Death-spiral - Yes, as characters take more damage, they have modifiers applied to their actions, making it more difficult to hit or take action. If "Storyteller" you're referring to is the WoD rules, then some of my players who've been in Vampire games said that True20 is like combining D&D with WoD.

So far all five players who participated in the True20 game I ran a couple of weeks ago was very positive about the system and the possiblity of converting their on-going D&D game over to it. Going forward it's the primary rule set I'll be using.

 

[Goken100]

iwatt, I'm with you on this. From my (admittedly) minimal playtesting, True20 is at least as complex as the core rules. The complexities enter in due to the modifiers from all the damage. One must count up all of the wounds one has taken each time one makes a saving throw to avoid further damage. And there are other damage modifiers too. Then one considers how many rolls there are for each attack: 2 or 3, instead of 1 or 2 with D&D.

Now, the great thing about it is that its more realistic. Its probably only slightly more complex, if at all. So I still think its cool. I just don't think its simple. Thus I have, sadly, opted not to implement.

iwatt, I'm also with you about players being more interested in casual gaming than nitty-gritty carnage. What's with that? If only we didn't need them at all! J/K

 

[Jack Morgan]

I have been running a True20 campaign for about six weeks. I think it is much simpler, but maybe not in the ways you are looking for. We found the damage track to be really easy to use- but it took some getting used to- the modifiers changing hasn't really been a problem- i mean telling someone to take -2 on their toughness save is about as complicated as it gets. combat goes really, really fast- at least in my group. As far as being more realistic, i guess it is, a high level guy can be killed with a single bullet, and really that's okay. Magic is waaaaay simpler than in DnD, no question. i also like the way magic works- adepts get tired out by using their powers.
Personally I love it and my players love it. There are some drawbacks to the book itself, though; my cheif complaint is the lack of cross referencing and the index is just sad- heartbreakingly Dickensianly sad. The other thing i don't like about it is the lack of world building advice/rules- but really it is a lot of fun to play- and super easy to run. I can stat an advesary in about three seconds- really.
I think it is like many other game systems, you have to play a few times before the benefits/drawbacks become apparent. That said, I really can't reccomend it enough.

Disclaimer: My campaign is 1940's pulpy action, think Sky Captain crossed with CoC and it works great for that. I haven't tried it with any other genre yet, so I can't say how it would work, but my impression is it will rock no matter what you want to do with it.

 

[Yellow Sign]

Disclaimer: My campaign is 1940's pulpy action, think Sky Captain crossed with CoC and it works great for that. I haven't tried it with any other genre yet, so I can't say how it would work, but my impression is it will rock no matter what you want to do with it.

Your my HERO!!!

Do you have any campaign info that I could look at.


YS

 

[Jack Morgan]

Your my HERO!!!

Do you have any campaign info that I could look at.


YS

Sadly, no, I've been thinking of writing some more detailed notes, but I tend to just make it up as I go along. I actually started with some kind of gritty detective thing in mind, and the next thing I knew there were giant apes, Lemurains, Nazi's, russian spys, giant sea monsters, lost islands, man eating Neandrthal tribes, and lots of other stuff- the last play session ended with a fire/magic fight on board an Atlantean Starship buried deep beneath the antartic ice.

edit: sorry for the ot

 

[carpedavid]

1) The Damage and Fatigue saves seem more complex than hitpoint tracking. The variable modifiers and cross indexing between lethal and non-lethal status seems to be more work than simply substracting hp. Does it also introduce the "Death Spiral" effect typical of the old Storyteller system?

It's a different sort of work. While the Damage track is slightly more complex than hit points, in and of itself, the streamlining of combat, in general, makes combat go faster. Removing thing like Attacks of Opportunity, and adding things like minion rules make combat flow faster.

It does introduce a Death Spiral, though. It's especially brutal when you get Wounded/Dazed, which introduces a "stun lock" of sorts.

2) How simple is the Powers system? Is it balanced? Is the True Sorcery sorcerer a better fit?

I'm playing an adept right now, and I love the Powers system. While I haven't had a chance to look at True Sorcery in depth, my cursory review indicates that it is more complex than the Powers system. For my tastes, Powers are exactly what I want fantasy magic to be. The fatigue track is easy to keep track of - to me, a lot easier than a long list of spells.

 

[frankthedm]

It does introduce a Death Spiral, though. It's especially brutal when you get Wounded/Dazed, which introduces a "stun lock" of sorts.

Thats why you have friends.

 

[bento]

Removing thing like Attacks of Opportunity, and adding things like minion rules make combat flow faster.

These two ideas have probably had the greatest impact on pace of game play. With no AoO, there isn't the sudden stop in play to determine whether an action requires an AoO. Fewer game rule look-ups, the faster the game (and better immersion).

The minion rule, which allows the GM to not make Toughness saves for commons (thugs, orcs, etc.) once they are hit, means they don't have to track every critter's HP.

The book doesn't emphasize the 5ft = 1 inch grid that D&D3.5 combat is all about. In the one game we played so far, I only sketched out the battle map on paper with rough distances given. Going forward, I'll probably do this more rather than drag out the battlemat and sketch everything out.

 

[jaldaen]

Hello,

I'm the designer/writer of the Nevermore campaign setting in the True20: Worlds of Adventure book by Green Ronin and must say that True20 is definately simplier to use from a design stand point. Making NPCs/Monsters and other bits that come up often as a Narrator is much more streamlined than in regular d20.

I can't say that True20 is as simple as it could be in some areas, but it greatly reduces the amount of time I need to spend preparing for products/adventures, etc...