True Strike and Invisibility question

[Darklone]

Some things to add.

Ok. First of all, I agree with Caliban, True strike cancels the 50% miss chance of invisible creatures, but you still have to know it's location. Why?

KarinsDad, you often said brought other spells into the discussion like obscuring mist e.g.

Another example: MAGIC MISSILE. (Hate that spell). You can hit someone who is displaced but not someone who is invisible! Think about it, it kills your argument about why true strike should help against invisibility if it helps against displacement.

Caliban: I always got the impression that Spot check DC20 only tells you that there is SOMETHING invisible out there, not WHERE it is. Am I mistaken? IMHO spot would be too good if you can simply look around and see the invisible one.

 

[Henrix]

Heh, I already know what KD will answer: True Strike is a Divination spell, while Magic Missile is Evocation.

But I certainly don't agree, all divination spells do not divine everything.
Detect Evil is a divination spell (magic!) that won't help you find a Chaotic Neutral invisible rogue, for instance.
Spells do what's in their description, period.

And the DC 20 Spot check just tells you there's something moving out there. If the Invisible thing is holding still, it's DC 30.
To pinpoint an invisible creature enough to target him you need a Spot check with a +20 DC, i.e. DC 40 if the creature is moving. According to the DMG.
Listen is better at finding invisibles.

 

[shilsen]

Re: Some things to add.

Caliban: I always got the impression that Spot check DC20 only tells you that there is SOMETHING invisible out there, not WHERE it is. Am I mistaken? IMHO spot would be too good if you can simply look around and see the invisible one.

You're right. It would be DC 40 to pinpoint the precise location.

 

[Psyduck]

Re: Some things to add.

Ok. First of all, I agree with Caliban, True strike cancels the 50% miss chance of invisible creatures, but you still have to know it's location. Why?

KarinsDad, you often said brought other spells into the discussion like obscuring mist e.g.

Another example: MAGIC MISSILE. (Hate that spell). You can hit someone who is displaced but not someone who is invisible! Think about it, it kills your argument about why true strike should help against invisibility if it helps against displacement.

Caliban: I always got the impression that Spot check DC20 only tells you that there is SOMETHING invisible out there, not WHERE it is. Am I mistaken? IMHO spot would be too good if you can simply look around and see the invisible one.

This is almost a good example, except you can't hit anyone with a certain amount of cover, while with True Strike you can. You can't hit the target more than once using True Strike, while with Magic Missle it works up to 5 times.

Point? You don't have to see your target with True Strike, while with Magic Missle you do. They're different spells, so they do different things. Both of them seem balanced to me (according to each other anyway, MM might be better still )

Obviously, I pointed out the chart, so I am siding with KD.

 

[IceBear]

And I'm obviously against the idea that the 1st level True Strike spell would allow you to target someone that you can't pinpoint the location of (or are even aware of) before you attack. If you figured out where to focus your attack, I read the spell description as having the the spell effects kick in as you attack. It doesn't start working, tell you where to focus your attack, and then aid the actual attack.

I don't have an issue with a higher level version of this spell accomplishing this, just not True Strike as written.

IceBear

 

[IceBear]

Well, here's the spell description of True Strike from the SRD:

The character gains temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during the character's next attack. The character's next single attack roll (within the duration of the spell) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, the character is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target.

I notice that it states that the insight comes into effect DURING the character's next attack. Not BEFORE the character's next attack. Thus, until you actually choose the opponent you're going to attack you don't get any bonuses of the spell (such as ignoring the miss chance due to concealment).

Now normally, a player will choose a target of his attack by designating a visible monster or a square that an invisible monster is in. I believe that once that has been done, the attack starts. Obviously, some of you feel that the actual choice of target is part of the attack. I do not. You choose and THEN you make your attack roll, and it's this attack roll that gets the benefits of the spell.

IceBear

 

[Theovis]

"Concealment" isn't a general description of the effects of invisibility, it's a specific game effect. Negating concealment doesn't negate the other effects of invisibility, such as the invisible subjects bonus to hit people (or their target's loss of DEX bonus), the insane rolls needed to spot the character...or the effect that requires opponents to guess or pinpoint the square.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

KD, even Magus seems to hold the condition that you have to be aware of your target.

I do - but I would hold that you only need know that the invisible opponent is "somewhere over there" to attempt the attack. It is the kind of information yielded either by a spot check - or the awareness that " you just got fireballed by something standing "over in this general area".

KD seems to be arguing no need for a "spot check" at all

I would say you need the knowledge granted by the DC 20 check concerning invisible creatuures.

If you can hit the DC 40 check - then the issue is moot - as you know the exact 5ft square.

PS - Don't forget - spot checks are modified by distance...

 

[Arcanus]

OKAY I STARTED THIS VERY HEATED THREAD AND NOW I HAVE TO ANSWER MY OWN QUESTION!!!!

The Sage has ruled that you must know which square to hit in order to get the bonus from True Strike. If you target the wrong square you miss the invisible foe, if you hit the right square you negate the miss chance entirely that concealed foes get and you roll to hit his AC.

If anyone wants a copy of the e-mail post a link here on this thread and I will send it.

 

[jontherev]

OKAY I STARTED THIS VERY HEATED THREAD AND NOW I HAVE TO ANSWER MY OWN QUESTION!!!!

The Sage has ruled that you must know which square to hit in order to get the bonus from True Strike. If you target the wrong square you miss the invisible foe, if you hit the right square you negate the miss chance entirely that concealed foes get and you roll to hit his AC.

If anyone wants a copy of the e-mail post a link here on this thread and I will send it.

Well, that's just what I thought. Why not just post his response on here? Many people do this...