Try again <sigh> Monks and Improve Natural Attack

[Artoomis]

I'm not quite sure how it's at all relevant... let alone 'shakey'...



I'd assume that it's a shorthand for "the effect bestowed by the Keen Edge spell and the effect bestowed by the Improved Critical feat", much as someone might write "multiple enhancement bonuses (such as the Magic Weapon and Shillelagh spells) do not stack" as a shorthand for "such as the enhancement bonus bestowed by the Magic Weapon spell and the enhancement bonus bestowed by the Shillelagh spell".

-Hyp.

And I assume that "effects" in the Monk's description includes feats since I assume that they knew what they were doing when they wrote this spell. I prefer in all cases to assume that the authors made no error uinless it's very clear that an error exists. Since both your arguments and mine are based upon are possibly flawed assumptions, there is no certainty and thus the FAQ entry is required for clarity.

Even if we assume this spell is sloppily written and that's not what they meant, how can we also assume, at the same time, that the monk's description was carefully crafted to exclude feats. Is it not better to either assume some looseness in both cases or assume both are carefully written?

 

[Hypersmurf]

And I assume that "effects" in the Monk's description includes feats since I assume that they knew what they were doing when they wrote this spell.

But the Monk description refers to 'spells and effects'. If "effects (such as the Keen Edge spell or the Improved Critical feat)" is read to mean "spells are effects and feats are effects", then the phrase "spells and effects" is nonsensical - it's like saying "longswords and weapons" or "Magic Missile and Evocations".

Hence my contention that the 'such as' is referring to the effects of the Keen Edge spell and the Improved Critical feat.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

But the Monk description refers to 'spells and effects'. If "effects (such as the Keen Edge spell or the Improved Critical feat)" is read to mean "spells are effects and feats are effects", then the phrase "spells and effects" is nonsensical - it's like saying "longswords and weapons" or "Magic Missile and Evocations".

Hence my contention that the 'such as' is referring to the effects of the Keen Edge spell and the Improved Critical feat.

-Hyp.

And once again you are looking for too much precision in the language.

"Effects" is simply a very imprecisely used term. It simply may or may not truly include "feats," and may or may not be meant to include feats in the monk desrciption. There is simply no conclusive way to determine if "effects" in the monk description really, truly includes "feats" or not.

Unless, we of course, we defer to WotC to settle the matter and declare which way it should be read (thus asking them for a FAQ entry).

Which of course they have done.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I admire your persistence, Artoomis, but threads like this remind me of this comic strip:

http://www.badgods.com/keyboard.html

 

[Artoomis]

I admire your persistence, Artoomis...

My persistence? From my view it is others who persist in hanging on to the view that monks may not take INA.

 

[Vurt]

My persistence? From my view it is others who persist in hanging on to the view that monks may not take INA.

There, there... It'll be OK...

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Artoomis]

There, there... It'll be OK...

Cheers,
Vurt

My comment did come across a bit testy, didn't it? It was not meant that way. Honestly.

 

[Legildur]

My comment did come across a bit testy, didn't it? It was not meant that way. Honestly.

LOL! It did a bit, but given the topic, I ignored it. And I admire not only your persistence, but your patience! And you still haven't managed to sway me.

 

[Artoomis]

... And you still haven't managed to sway me.

Not yet!

 

[3d6]

I vote "maybe". I don't think it is clear what constitutes an "effect" in the D&D rules. I tend to lean towards the FAQ view, simply because the rule is ambiguous and the question is often asked, and providing an offical answer to such a question is the intended purpose of the FAQ.