Try again <sigh> Monks and Improve Natural Attack

[Hypersmurf]

So the fact that the target is "you" and the effect is to improves natural weapons you see an entirely different than the feat requiring you have natrual weapons?

Right.

If it were true, then the lone core rule example of a feat being called an "effect" would have to called defintive and therefore feats ARE effects and the argument is done.

You're talking about Keen Edge?

If you're going to insist on that one, I'll be forced to point out that all it can be used to show is that the Improved Critical feat is considered an effect, and I don't endorse even that reading

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Amendment: Anything from the Core Rules? (PHB, MM, DMG?)

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.

Amulet of Mighty Fists: This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.

(Now, that one works for anyone's unarmed strike... but even if "unarmed attacks and" were removed, it would still work for a monk, and nobody else.)

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.

Amulet of Mighty Fists: This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.

(Now, that one works for anyone's unarmed strike... but even if "unarmed attacks and" were removed, it would still work for a monk, and nobody else.)

-Hyp.

So we are to assume that "effects" means ONLY Amulet of Might Fists (which does not count as it applies to "unarmed attacks" anyway) and a possible vampire-monk. And that's IT?

Surely not.

 

[KarinsDad]

Even easier than that (since psionics isn't in the core)--Extraordinary and Supernatural attacks of monsters

Psionics is in the SRD though.

But, you are correct. If there are any EX, SP, or SU abilities that affect natural weapons, they would work.

 

[Artoomis]

Psionics is in the SRD though.

But, you are correct. If there are any EX, SP, or SU abilities that affect natural weapons, they would work.

Really? How so?

Because the monk would also be a "monster" and thus have the ability already without having to worry about qualifying for it?

So are we to believe the sole purpose of the word "effects" in the monk description (using Core Rules only) is so that monk PCs could more effectively play characters based upon moster.

Please, you MUST be joking.

 

[KarinsDad]

So we are to assume that "effects" means ONLY Amulet of Might Fists (which does not count as it applies to "unarmed attacks" anyway) and a possible vampire-monk. And that's IT?

Surely not.

A very odd form of debate.

First, you ask for EVEN ONE such effect.

I point out Psionics (of which there are several).

Then you ask for ANY CORE effects.

Hyp then points out two from core.

Then, you complain that it is only two effects.


It appears that thou dost protect too much. When it is pointed out that there are some effects, both core and SRD, outside of spells, it does not satisfy you.

What exactly are you looking for?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Psionics is in the SRD though.

But, you are correct. If there are any EX, SP, or SU abilities that affect natural weapons, they would work.

Right, like the vampire ability Hyp mentioned above.

 

[thorian]

This is non-core...

The new book, Dragon Magic, has an item named the Fang Ring. It grants Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) as a bonus feat in addition to Improved Unarmed Strike.

 

[Artoomis]

...You're talking about Keen Edge?

If you're going to insist on that one, I'll be forced to point out that all it can be used to show is that the Improved Critical feat is considered an effect, and I don't endorse even that reading

-Hyp.

"...Multiple effects that increase a weapon’s threat range (such as the keen edge spell and the Improved Critical feat) " Cannot be read any other way that to say that at least the Improved Critical Feat is is an "effect" UNLESS one does not use a strict construction of the rules. How can you read this (assuming no error from WotC) to say anything other than that the Improved Critical feat is an example of an "effect" that incereases a weapon's threat range?

If one does not use a strict construction here, then why would one do so for the monk description?

Sorry, but speakiing very strictly, you cannot logically have it both ways.

 

[KarinsDad]

Really? How so?

Because the monk would also be a "monster" and thus have the ability already without having to worry about qualifying for it?

So are we to believe the sole purpose of the word "effects" in the monk description (using Core Rules only) is so that monk PCs could more effectively play characters based upon moster.

Please, you MUST be joking.

A PC can gain EX, SP, and SU abilities from PrCs and not be a monster. For example, Ki Strike and Fist of Energy are SU abilities of Enlightened Fists.

The purpose of the word "effects" in the monk description is so that WotC could add effects to Monk Unarmed Strikes, regardless of in which book they do that in.


You limit your thinking to monster abilities only and core only???

Please, you MUST be joking.