"Try Castles & Crusades", they say. But no one's playing it!

[Akrasia]

Selling out a print run doesn't mean much if you don't know how many books were printed. Not trying to start anything, just saying.

Fair enough. All it shows is that demand turned out to be more than the publisher expected.

I wish that James Mishler were here to post in this thread, as he seems to have concrete data showing that C&C products are doing extremely well (second only to Goodman Games' 'Dungeon Crawl Classics' among 3rd-party publishers). Since his job involves tracking such sales, I am willing to accept his claims on this matter. Unfortunately, I don't know where or how to track down that data myself.

Obviously C&C is very small compared to 3e D&D (like pretty much any other RPG). But as far as I can tell, it is doing well enough to ensure a decent release schedule, as well as products from other companies (like Goodman Games). However, I do wish it were more available. I can't find C&C products anywhere in Dublin. But I'm not about to conclude that simply because game stores in Ireland don't carry C&C products, the game is not doing well. (Of course, Irish game stores really suck, so I'm always surprised whenever they have anything not related to 3e D&D, NWoD, or WFRP.)

 

[Akrasia]

...
Can somebody link me to something detailed about C&C?
...

Here's a review of C&C that I wrote: http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11008.phtml

In it I compare C&C to 3e D&D, as well as earlier versions of D&D.

But if you're not interested in a game that is similar in certain respects to pre-3e D&D (incl. 1e AD&D), then C&C is unlikely to appeal to you.

True 20 and Unisystem (with D&Z) are also great games, well worth checking out. You might consider getting the True20 book (all the rules are in one book) and the free 'Freeport' adventure pdf available from Green Ronin which uses the True20 rules (assuming that you want to run something in the fantasy genre).

HARP may also be worth checking out if you're interested in a fantasy game other than 3e D&D. HARP is not 'lighter' than 3e, but definitely has a different flavour. The 'HARP Lite' rules are available for free at the ICE website. It includes everything you need to run the game!

I like C&C, but I'll be the first to acknowledge that it isn't to everyone's tastes. And I like lots of other games as well! There are plenty of options out there to check out if you're feeling 'burnt out' by 3e.

 

[Shroomy]

I did find some C&C products at the FLGS today, for some reason, it was far away from the fantasy RPG shelves and was mixed in with D20 Modern supplements and a potpourri of other game systems. I'm not sure why it wasn't included with the other d20/OGL/Fantasy RPG games.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

C&C has peaked interest, but I haven't seen anything on it other than it's similar to 1e. Reading some of these posts makes me think twice on that.
Can somebody link me to something detailed about C&C?

Try here.
Also, check out the official forums and the Dragonsfoot forum.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I'd sooner play Rule's Cyclopedia D&D (warts and all) and call it nostalgia than play a hybrid system with none of the charm and memory of Old D&D and none of the option and consistancy of 3.5.

Rules Cyclopedia is one of my favorite systems; Classic D&D is great fun, nostalgia or not. I don't agree with the second part of your statement, though. ;-)

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

This is not to pass judgment on the quality of the game, for those who want what it offers, C&C may be a fine game, but for those who like it, it will be hard to spread the game in real life since many gamers will never have heard of it, may well not be interested in the niche it offers, and are happy with what they already have, and it may be hard to find at local gaming stores.

I think you're on the money, here. C&C is, IMO, a fine game, but the number of people playing C&C is a drop in the bucket compared to 3E. You don't see it in many stores. I just started a new group, and the new players looked for it, but they had to order it.

On the other hand, C&C seems to be doing quite well for the Troll Lords. It's selling enough that they're doing multiple printings and expanding their product line (there're a BUNCH of modules on the way), and they're actually converting a lot of their old d20 material over. Niche product? Sure. But apparently a successful niche in a difficult market.

When it comes down to it, I don't really care if its niche or not. I've never had trouble finding players (for any game), so I'm not put off by the niche thing. That's a common criticism of less widespread/popular systems, so maybe I'm atypical.

 

[Arashi Ravenblade]

I was recently in a game shop i had not been in for almost a year. I looked at their game selection and was astonished that their was almost no non- d20 product on the shelf. i talked to one of the guys that worked there and he simply said that other than Call of Cthulhu and NWOD and OWOD non-d20 material simply doesnt sell in the area they are in.
They either send it back or sell the stuff that doesnt sell to collectors online.

AS for knowing people that play other games i live in a small town (circleville, ohio) and i do know of alot of gamers in the area including Logan Elm and such. But talking to some of them i hear the same thing, d20 is the king and if it aint d20 or white wolf it aint worth playing. And true 20 isnt really popular around here either. My group in the only one that has M&M 2e and we dont like it.

So i guess the minority should just suck it up or quite playing. It's really the only thing they can do when no one is willing to play what you would consider th eeasier system.

 

[GeorgeFields]

Here's a review of C&C that I wrote: http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11008.phtml

In it I compare C&C to 3e D&D, as well as earlier versions of D&D.

But if you're not interested in a game that is similar in certain respects to pre-3e D&D (incl. 1e AD&D), then C&C is unlikely to appeal to you.

True 20 and Unisystem (with D&Z) are also great games, well worth checking out. You might consider getting the True20 book (all the rules are in one book) and the free 'Freeport' adventure pdf available from Green Ronin which uses the True20 rules (assuming that you want to run something in the fantasy genre).

HARP may also be worth checking out if you're interested in a fantasy game other than 3e D&D. HARP is not 'lighter' than 3e, but definitely has a different flavour. The 'HARP Lite' rules are available for free at the ICE website. It includes everything you need to run the game!

I like C&C, but I'll be the first to acknowledge that it isn't to everyone's tastes. And I like lots of other games as well! There are plenty of options out there to check out if you're feeling 'burnt out' by 3e.

Thanks for the link. I've got HARP-Lite already but haven't looked at it.

I'm interested in True20 b/c it's a combination of Unisystem & d20 from what I've seen.
I've been playting Unisystem in BtVS for several months now. The GM described D&Z as D&D with Unisystem rules. I'll all for that. I like having a classless / level-less system.

I'll check out HARP-LITE tomorrow during my break at work.

Thanks for the other links, too, Philotomy. Time to go check them all out!

 

[ruleslawyer]

Ummm ... I'm not a 'kid', and was merely conveying my past experience with trancejeremy in the hope of sparing Flexor some grief.

If you think that my post violated the forum rules, then by all means feel free to report it to the mods. Otherwise, spare me the patronising attitude.

Excuse me for suggesting that maybe some civility is in order. It seems like you've taken what was intended to be a figure of speech a bit seriously. Your "patronising attitude" comment coupled with the above really isn't helping.

*sigh*. This is false. C&C has precisely the same 'unified mechanic' as 3e, viz., the 'roll-d20-higher-is-always-better' mechanic. It uses that mechanic for pretty much everything that 3e does (combat, class abilities, saving throws, etc.). And I fail to see why 'class abilities' in C&C are any more complicated than 'class abilities' in 3e.

That's a reductionist reading of my point. I wasn't suggesting that C&C wasn't a d20 game, but rather that it uses multiple parallel sets of rules to resolve what D&D treats as identical mechanics: Things like hiding, climbing, flanking, fighting with two weapons, et cetera. It does so by taking these rules out of the "default" ability set for PCs and assigning access to them to specific PC types by transforming them into class abilities. IMHO, this is an inelegant means of simplifying the D&D game system. I wasn't attempting to ascribe "bad wrong fun" to C&C; I think it's perfectly fun to play. What I was saying is that it's not as "simple" as it could be.

Well, this is a constructive suggestion. I'd be curious to see how it worked in practice.

Why thank you!

 

[Akrasia]

Excuse me for suggesting that maybe some civility is in order...

Well, sorry, but I didn't think I was being 'uncivil' in the post that seemed to disturb you.

...
That's a reductionist reading of my point. I wasn't suggesting that C&C wasn't a d20 game, but rather that it uses multiple parallel sets of rules to resolve what D&D treats as identical mechanics: Things like hiding, climbing, flanking, fighting with two weapons, et cetera...

C&C doesn't use 'multipe parallel sets of rules' to resolve these things. It uses the same rule (at least inasmuch as d20 D&D does), namely, roll 1d20 + ability bonus + level (if a class ability) > or = target number (or 'DC) to succeed.

I certainly don't mind if people don't like C&C. It is a game that will not appeal to everyone. I just get slightly frustrated when its rules are misrepresented.

...
It does so by taking these rules out of the "default" ability set for PCs and assigning access to them to specific PC types by transforming them into class abilities...

The 'default' set remains the same for all PCs (roll 1d20 + ability bonus versus TN/DC). Only class-specific abilities allow PCs to add their level. I'm not seeing what is terribly complicated about this.