D&D General TSR to WoTC shift--OR--the de-prioritization on Exploration spells/classes

Zardnaar

Legend
This must have something to do with house rules you use for other XP sources and for greater survivability, too. For me, running TSR-era D&D the first few levels should only take 3-4 sessions to advance each, as Moldvay recommended in 1981. Slower than 5E, certainly, but if you're running pure BTB 2E, or 1E without gold for XP, you've got to be looking at more like 10-12 sessions per level, even to hit 2nd.


So you've houseruled backstab to allow it multiple times in a single fight. That's certainly one way to help Thieves, albeit you don't take it as far as WotC.


Yes. As I wrote, as I got more experience with the oldest editions in the last few years, Fighters have definitely grown on me.


If your character relies on having to steal from the party, as I'm sure I've seen you point out in other threads, you're asking for trouble. :)


Well, sure. But you seem to have lost track of the point of the discussion. That having the OPTION to leave guards alive and unharmed while you yoink a McGuffin or treasure or what have you (say, in a city adventure where you don't want to murder someone?) is often a really useful tool to have in the toolbox. Or to put down a Dominated party member without bloodshed. Or stop a bar fight in its tracks. Or capture the farmer's prized stallion. Etc. Sleep is a great tool for situations when you don't want people or animals dead.

Without gold for XP in B/X it took us a year to hit level 4. 1.5 hours a week over school year.
 

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Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Without gold for XP in B/X it took us a year to hit level 4. 1.5 hours a week over school year.
Yes. Monster xp is so low in OD&D (after 1974), Classic D&D, and 1E AD&D that I've played in Old School games online where DMs seriously discussed not bothering with it. That it might not be worth the time to calculate it. I think TSR gave it a mild bump in 2E, but it's still not a lot.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Yes. Monster xp is so low in OD&D (after 1974), Classic D&D, and 1E AD&D that I've played in Old School games online where DMs seriously discussed not bothering with it. That it might not be worth the time to calculate it. I think TSR gave it a mild bump in 2E, but it's still not a lot.

I'm probably gonna stop awarding monster XP I'll just make a number up as keeping track of a 7xp kobold isn't worth my time.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
So you've houseruled backstab to allow it multiple times in a single fight. That's certainly one way to help Thieves, albeit you don't take it as far as WotC.
Some months back, I had a guy tell me that Thieves were fine in AD&D, because they were able to sneak around and backstab all the time. I was pretty incredulous, bringing up the low odds for Hide in Shadows and Move Silently, and all the rules that existed to prevent someone from doing so (requiring attacking from the rear, melee attacks only- no sniping allowed!, surprising the enemy, having the enemy be completely unaware of you, being able to reach a vital area, etc.).

It really does show how a lot of people were playing AD&D, but very different games. The last Thief I made, I didn't even bother to write Backstab down on my sheet and used a short bow safely from the back line.
 

Voadam

Legend
My memory is that 2e had significantly higher monster xp awards

Looking up the 1e DMG monster charts and comparing to the 2e Monstrous Manual listings:

1e Orc 10 xp +1/hp.
2e Orc 15 xp

So my memory is wrong at low levels, those are about the same.

1e Ogre 90 xp +5 per hp. (4+1 HD ~19hp =~185 xp total)
2e Ogre 270 xp.

So maybe 50% more for a 4 HD monster.

1e Marilith 3,000 xp +12/hp (7+7 HD so about 468xp for hp or roughly 3,500 xp total)
2e Marilith 45,000 xp (12 HD so not quite apples to apples)

1e Purple Worm 4900 +20/hp (15 HD so ~1350 = 6,250 xp)
2e Purple Worm 13,000 xp. (15 HD)

About double 1e.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
This must have something to do with house rules you use for other XP sources and for greater survivability, too. For me, running TSR-era D&D the first few levels should only take 3-4 sessions to advance each, as Moldvay recommended in 1981. Slower than 5E, certainly, but if you're running pure BTB 2E, or 1E without gold for XP, you've got to be looking at more like 10-12 sessions per level, even to hit 2nd.
Given all sorts of various factors, the average* party level going up by about 1 a year is fine with me.

* - individual characters can and will progress a bit faster, but between deaths, turnover, and other factors the average moves slower.
So you've houseruled backstab to allow it multiple times in a single fight. That's certainly one way to help Thieves, albeit you don't take it as far as WotC.
No houseruling needed (for once!). A Thief can backstrike any unaware opponent that has a strikeable back. Hiding in shadows, in many cases, takes only a round; and nobody can be aware of a hidden Thief (even more so if the party front-liners are doing their job and keeping everyone distracted). Hence, under ideal circumstances and if the dice co-operate, a Thief could backstrike every other round.

The risk, of course, is that the Thief's allies don't always know where he is either; meaning the MU has to go easy on the area-blast effects. And, of course, if a backstrike doesn't kill and the backstruck foe turns and chases the Thief, the jig is up. :)
If your character relies on having to steal from the party, as I'm sure I've seen you point out in other threads, you're asking for trouble. :)
Only if I get caught. ;)

That said, IME most of the time low-level MUs are more concerned with spending their money on building up their spellbooks and thus don't put up much of a claim for items. (the way we do it, you "buy" items out of treasury, meaning everyone ends up with an equal-value share and nobody gets hosed)
Well, sure. But you seem to have lost track of the point of the discussion. That having the OPTION to leave guards alive and unharmed while you yoink a McGuffin or treasure or what have you (say, in a city adventure where you don't want to murder someone?) is often a really useful tool to have in the toolbox. Or to put down a Dominated party member without bloodshed. Or stop a bar fight in its tracks. Or capture the farmer's prized stallion. Etc. Sleep is a great tool for situations when you don't want people or animals dead.
Sure. I just almost never see it used in those ways...except once, very recently. Party was up against a big ol' blue Dragon and were trying to parley with it. The MU offered to feed it, went out, cast Sleep on a couple of sheep, and carried one back in. The Dragon came out to eat the sheep and the party attacked en masse; the poor unlucky sheep got trampled to death by the Dragon during the battle that followed.

Also, keep in mind that anything over 4th level/4 HD is immune to Sleep; and it'd be pretty rare that you'd be meeting opponents who could Dominate before that level.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
My memory is that 2e had significantly higher monster xp awards

Looking up the 1e DMG monster charts and comparing to the 2e Monstrous Manual listings:

1e Orc 10 xp +1/hp.
2e Orc 15 xp

So my memory is wrong at low levels, those are about the same.

1e Ogre 90 xp +5 per hp. (4+1 HD ~19hp =~185 xp total)
2e Ogre 270 xp.

So maybe 50% more for a 4 HD monster.

1e Marilith 3,000 xp +12/hp (7+7 HD so about 468xp for hp or roughly 3,500 xp total)
2e Marilith 45,000 xp (12 HD so not quite apples to apples)

1e Purple Worm 4900 +20/hp (15 HD so ~1350 = 6,250 xp)
2e Purple Worm 13,000 xp. (15 HD)

About double 1e.

Still slower check out the amount of cash in 1E and B/X.
 

Voadam

Legend
No houseruling needed (for once!). A Thief can backstrike any unaware opponent that has a strikeable back. Hiding in shadows, in many cases, takes only a round; and nobody can be aware of a hidden Thief (even more so if the party front-liners are doing their job and keeping everyone distracted). Hence, under ideal circumstances and if the dice co-operate, a Thief could backstrike every other round.
Even under that interpretation, hiding in shadows does not approach 50% until about 8th level in 1e.

A few 1e rule phrasings may induce a DM to rule the second shots do not quite work though, or are more situationally restricted.

PH page 28 "Hiding in Shadows cannot be accomplished under direct observation." so to hide you have to get fully out of direct observation.

DMG page 19 "Hide In Shadows: As is plainly stated in PLAYERS HANDBOOK, this is NEVER possible under direct (or even indirect) observation. If the thief insists on trying, allow the attempt and throw dice, but don’t bother to read them, as the fool is as obvious as a coal pile in a ballroom. Likewise, if a hidden thief attempts movement while under observation, the proverbial jig is up for him or her. Naturally, a creature closely pressed in melee is not likely to bother with looking for some thief not directly in the line of sight, but if vision would normally extend to the thief’s area of activity, then observation rules apply. Unobserved attempts to hide in shadows must likewise stand the hazard of the dice roll. A score greater than the required number shows that the character’s ability is not on a par with his or her intent, and although he or she THINKS hiding has been successful, the creature looking in that direction will note a suspicious outline, form, or whatever. Note also that a thief hiding in shadows is still subject to detection just as if he or she was invisible (see INVISIBILITY, DETECTION OF INVISIBILITY table)."

So the thief needs to stay completely out of the target's vision to stay hidden in shadow, even when the target is pressed closely in melee.

PH page 27 "Back stabbing is the striking of a blow from behind, be it with club, dagger, or sword. The damage done per hit is twice normal for the weapon used per four experience levels of the thief, i.e. double damage at levels 1-4, triple at 5-8, quadruple at levels 9-12, and quintuple at levels 13-16. Note that striking by surprise from behind also increases the hit probability by 20% (+4 on the thief’s “to hit” die roll)."

Not entirely clear whether the surprise +4 to hit is just for D&D surprise and separate from the extra damage of a backstab which sounds like it is anytime from behind.

Again DMG page 19: "Back Stabbing: Opponents aware of the thief will be able to negate the attack form."

The 1e DMG rules that players are not directly privvy to says backstab is not just a matter of positioning or positioning and surprise. Awareness is sufficient to negate it.

So a judgment call on whether someone struck by the thief once is then aware of them.
 



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