D&D General TSR to WoTC shift--OR--the de-prioritization on Exploration spells/classes

[Lanefan]

Even under that interpretation, hiding in shadows does not approach 50% until about 8th level in 1e.

A few 1e rule phrasings may induce a DM to rule the second shots do not quite work though, or are more situationally restricted.

PH page 28 "Hiding in Shadows cannot be accomplished under direct observation." so to hide you have to get fully out of direct observation.

DMG page 19 "Hide In Shadows: As is plainly stated in PLAYERS HANDBOOK, this is NEVER possible under direct (or even indirect) observation. If the thief insists on trying, allow the attempt and throw dice, but don’t bother to read them, as the fool is as obvious as a coal pile in a ballroom. Likewise, if a hidden thief attempts movement while under observation, the proverbial jig is up for him or her. Naturally, a creature closely pressed in melee is not likely to bother with looking for some thief not directly in the line of sight, but if vision would normally extend to the thief’s area of activity, then observation rules apply. Unobserved attempts to hide in shadows must likewise stand the hazard of the dice roll. A score greater than the required number shows that the character’s ability is not on a par with his or her intent, and although he or she THINKS hiding has been successful, the creature looking in that direction will note a suspicious outline, form, or whatever. Note also that a thief hiding in shadows is still subject to detection just as if he or she was invisible (see INVISIBILITY, DETECTION OF INVISIBILITY table)."

I probably give more weight to the "if pressed in melee" clause than some might - someone in melee can either look for the thief and be exposed to the melee foe, or deal with the melee foe at cost of automatically (unless the Thief is a complete idiot) losing track of the Thief.

So the thief needs to stay completely out of the target's vision to stay hidden in shadow, even when the target is pressed closely in melee.

PH page 27 "Back stabbing is the striking of a blow from behind, be it with club, dagger, or sword. The damage done per hit is twice normal for the weapon used per four experience levels of the thief, i.e. double damage at levels 1-4, triple at 5-8, quadruple at levels 9-12, and quintuple at levels 13-16. Note that striking by surprise from behind also increases the hit probability by 20% (+4 on the thief’s “to hit” die roll)."

Not entirely clear whether the surprise +4 to hit is just for D&D surprise and separate from the extra damage of a backstab which sounds like it is anytime from behind.

I've always taken the +4 to be a built-in part of the backstrike ability; though as noted elsewhere it also applies to the first attack by any invisible foe. Typical 1e confusion.

Again DMG page 19: "Back Stabbing: Opponents aware of the thief will be able to negate the attack form."

The 1e DMG rules that players are not directly privvy to says backstab is not just a matter of positioning or positioning and surprise. Awareness is sufficient to negate it.

So a judgment call on whether someone struck by the thief once is then aware of them.

True. I should have clarified I was assuming the Thief was going for a different target each time. Obviously someone backstruck once will be aware there's a danger to the rear - assuming, of course, the backstrike left them capable of being aware of anything.

 

[Lanefan]

One level per year? I would blow my brains out. Ten years before I actually get to play half of the game that I bought? No thank you.

My games tend to cap out at around 10th-12th level in any case, as the system kinda starts to come off the rails after that.

That, and levelling isn't seen as the goal here (mostly) but more as a sidelight. If the story and day-to-day play is engaging enough it probably doesn't matter if we level at all; but levelling does allow the DM to provide a bit more variety in the types of opposition we face.

 

[Lanefan]

Heh yeah something like that.

7-10 levels probably be my preferred rate over a year.

Which means, if the campaign is intended to go ten years or more, by the end you'd be somewhere in the 70th-100th level range. Yikes! (yes, BECMI in theory could handle levels that high but really didn't do it very well, and all other editions would have long since choked on their beers)

 

[Zardnaar]

Which means, if the campaign is intended to go ten years or more, by the end you'd be somewhere in the 70th-100th level range. Yikes! (yes, BECMI in theory could handle levels that high but really didn't do it very well, and all other editions would have long since choked on their beers)

And the game ends at 20.

I don't really expect to go much past level 12 that's being generous as well. Campaign 6-18 months or so restart.

 

[Lanefan]

And the game ends at 20.

I don't really expect to go much past level 12 that's being generous as well. Campaign 6-18 months or so restart.

Nope. I put too much time and effort into my settings to blow them off in 6-18 months. Hell, the world I'm using now took over a year to design before it ever saw play.

Current game's been running almost 15 years, though with many different interweaving parties and characters along with some thus-far-disconnected parties. Still has legs, to the point where there's no end in sight as long as people want to play it.

 

[Zardnaar]

Nope. I put too much time and effort into my settings to blow them off in 6-18 months. Hell, the world I'm using now took over a year to design before it ever saw play.

Current game's been running almost 15 years, though with many different interweaving parties and characters along with some thus-far-disconnected parties. Still has legs, to the point where there's no end in sight as long as people want to play it.

And that's fine you do you.

 

[Staffan]

My memory is that 2e had significantly higher monster xp awards

Looking up the 1e DMG monster charts and comparing to the 2e Monstrous Manual listings:

1e Orc 10 xp +1/hp.
2e Orc 15 xp

So my memory is wrong at low levels, those are about the same.

1e Ogre 90 xp +5 per hp. (4+1 HD ~19hp =~185 xp total)
2e Ogre 270 xp.

So maybe 50% more for a 4 HD monster.

1e Marilith 3,000 xp +12/hp (7+7 HD so about 468xp for hp or roughly 3,500 xp total)
2e Marilith 45,000 xp (12 HD so not quite apples to apples)

1e Purple Worm 4900 +20/hp (15 HD so ~1350 = 6,250 xp)
2e Purple Worm 13,000 xp. (15 HD)

About double 1e.

One of the reasons is that 1e special abilities added a fixed HD-based amount of XP, while 2e special abilities counted as more HD. And demons, for example, had buttloads of special abilities.

 

[Hussar]

Heh, back in 2e, I'd drop a small demon in an adventure for the express purpose of bumping characters up a level - they were just worth so much xp.

But, I'd point out that the baseline for advancement was 1 year for name level in AD&D. That was right in the1e DMG. 9-11 levels (depending on your class) in about 12 months of regular play. So, all this hoopla about 5e being so rocket fast isn't really true. It's just that people advanced characters a LOT slower than was presumed.

The actual rate of assumed advancement hasn't actually ever changed IME. It takes about a year of regular play to hit double digit levels - 10th or 11th (give or take), in any edition of the game. The only real difference is that in AD&D, you were mostly assumed to start over at 10th and 3e and later at least pretends to assume you will play to 20th, even if virtually no one actually does.

 

[clearstream]

That tends to reinforce a narrative (small n) approach- the Hickman design.

An approach I find to the 5e text that I find fruitful is to note that the Running the Game rules in the DMG are denoted Variant, Optional, and just plain rules. Relating to XP, it's worth quoting the (non-variant, non-optional) rules from that section here:

Spoiler: DMG XP Rules

EXPERIENCE POINTS
Experience points (XP) fuel level advancement for player characters and are most often the reward for completing combat encounters. Each monster has an XP value based on its challenge rating. When adventurers defeat one or more monsters-typically by killing, routing, or capturing them-they divide the total XP value of the monsters evenly among themselves. If the party received substantial assistance from one or more NPCs, count those NPCs as party members when dividing up the XP. (Because the NPCs made the fight easier, individual characters receive fewer XP.) Chapter 3, "Creating Adventures," provides guidelines for designing combat encounters using experience points.

NONCOMBAT CHALLENGES
You decide whether to award experience to characters for overcoming challenges outside combat. If the adventurers complete a tense negotiation with a baron, forge a trade agreement with a clan of surly dwarves, or successfully navigate the Chasm of Doom, you might decide that they deserve an XP reward. As a starting point, use the rules for building combat encounters in chapter 3 to gauge the difficulty of the challenge. Then award the characters XP as if it had been a combat encounter of the same difficulty, but only if the encounter involved a meaningful risk of failure.

MILESTONES
You can also award XP when characters complete significant milestones. When preparing your adventure, designate certain events or challenges as milestones, as with the following examples: Accomplishing one in a series of goals necessary to complete the adventure. Discovering a hidden location or piece of information relevant to the adventure. Reaching an important destination. When awarding XP, treat a major milestone as a hard encounter and a minor milestone as an easy encounter. If you want to reward your players for their progress through an adventure with something more than XP and treasure, give them additional small rewards at milestone points. Here are some examples: The adventurers gain the benefit of a short rest. Characters can recover a Hit Die or a low-level spell slot. Characters can regain the use of magic items that have had their limited uses expended.

LEVEL ADVANCEMENT WITHOUT XP
You can do away with experience points entirely and control the rate of character advancement. Advance characters based on how many sessions they play, or when they accomplish significant story goals in the campaign. In either case, you tell the players when their characters gain a level. This method of level advancement can be particularly helpful if your campaign doesn't include much combat, or includes so much combat that tracking XP becomes tiresome.

SESSION-BASED ADVANCEMENT
A good rate of session-based advancement is to have characters reach 2nd level after the first session of play, 3rd level after another session, and 4th level after two more sessions. Then spend two or three sessions for each subsequent level. This rate mirrors the standard rate of advancement, assuming sessions are about four hours long.

STORY-BASED ADVANCEMENT
When you let the story of the campaign drive advancement, you award levels when adventurers accomplish significant goals in the campaign.

The group can really agree to attach XP to anything, using the session-based advancement and combat encounter rates as a guideline. The game text overtly lays out non-combat XP... but fails to translate that into the sort of really concrete mechanical design that GP = XP represented. Perhaps that is consistent with assumptions about DM-curation in the D&D mode of play, but I feel like this part of the game design deserves more priority.

 

[Mannahnin]

The group can really agree to attach XP to anything, using the session-based advancement and combat encounter rates as a guideline. The game text overtly lays out non-combat XP... but fails to translate that into the sort of really concrete mechanical design that GP = XP represented. Perhaps that is consistent with assumptions about DM-curation in the D&D mode of play, but I feel like this part of the game design deserves more priority.

AngryGM has an article on awarding xp which I like, though as usual he's verbose as heck.

Angry’s Guide to Experience

Every time I talk about experience points, people want to pick a fight about it. Well, this is my last word on XP: how to properly award XP in D&D 5E, regardless of what the rules say, and reg…

theangrygm.com