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TSR3 missed deadlines, delays in Dungeon Crawl

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Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
In a move that I suspect surprises no one, LaNasa announced that their promised ship date of 12/20 for all the Dungeon Crawl board game preorders (they recently bought the rights of Dungeon Crawl from Wizard Tower Games (Doug)) is delayed.

So still no actual product from them.

They said it's because they are replacing cover art with Larry Elmores art. If the reason for the delay matters to you.

If you haven't seen this message, you must be lucky because they are spamming every group that remotely is connected to old TSR, including a group dedicated to the late Jim Holloway's art.
 

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aco175

Legend
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I mean, what else is there to say. I cannot keep all of them straight and I do not plan to buy from them. Is anyone waiting for this?
 



Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
Pastimg same response here. here’s the thing. Unlike this new TSR3, I’ve actually produced and shipped games. So something stands out to me.

They took money from people for preorders up until very recently with a promised ship date of 12/20. They are announcing they are delaying because they are making changes.

It takes a significant amount of time to make changes, approve files, manufacture those pieces, and collate to ship. Therefore, there is no way these guys had a product ready to ship by 12/20 when they started taking orders on 12/7. They promised a ship date without having even placed manufacturing orders, so I don’t see how they gave a ship date by 12/20 in the first place.

It all smells really fishy.
 

darjr

I crit!
Hey you! Yea that was me on Facebook.

Like I said there they better not screw over Larry Elmore. I would have hoped that someone would have warned him about them.

Just know that they must have paid a huge sum.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
I see one of two scenarios here.

1. they took money knowing full well they could never meet a ship date they promised to customers.

2. they have no clue as to how a manufacturing process actually works, or the time windows needed.

Both are plausible, sadly.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
Hey you! Yea that was me on Facebook.

Like I said there they better not screw over Larry Elmore. I would have hoped that someone would have warned him about them.

Just know that they must have paid a huge sum.
Elmore did the cover for Giantlands, so he knows who these guys are. Larry has always been super nice to me, so who knows if he really keeps up to date or just treats it like a commission. No idea. But he must at the very least have an idea about who they are.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
They took money from people for preorders up until very recently with a promised ship date of 12/20. They are announcing they are delaying because they are making changes.

It takes a significant amount of time to make changes, approve files, manufacture those pieces, and collate to ship. Therefore, there is no way these guys had a product ready to ship by 12/20 when they started taking orders on 12/7. They promised a ship date without having even placed manufacturing orders, so I don’t see how they gave a ship date by 12/20 in the first place.

It all smells really fishy.
I really don't understand anyone who can look at everything TSR3 has been up to this year and still say "yes, this is a good use of my money." The best I can say about them is that they have a truly astonishing amount of blind faith.

We've all seen TSR3's track record, we've all read their correspondence, we all have a pretty good idea of what they can offer. And if none of that warns you off, nothing will.
 
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I see one of two scenarios here.

1. they took money knowing full well they could never meet a ship date they promised to customers.

2. they have no clue as to how a manufacturing process actually works, or the time windows needed.

Both are plausible, sadly.

There's a third option I'm wondering about. The product page shows two interesting cards. One shows "Tensor the Crazy Wizard" and the other shows a "Gygaxian Ring". It is possible that they received legal threats from WotC or Gail Gygax (or both) for using these names, and need to do reprints as a result. I suppose we'll know when the game finally ships and see if either of these cards make it to the final product.

As always... Hi, Michael @TSR-Hobbies! We're here asking questions about TSR, and are open to discussion any time you want to talk.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
There's a third option I'm wondering about. The product page shows two interesting cards. One shows "Tensor the Crazy Wizard" and the other shows a "Gygaxian Ring". It is possible that they received legal threats from WotC or Gail Gygax (or both) for using these names, and need to do reprints as a result. I suppose we'll know when the game finally ships and see if either of these cards make it to the final product.

So what you're saying ... is that Lasagna's next post will be ...

We have dealeyd shiping our game. Sorry. Cant ship Decmember 20 due to LEGAL THREATS from HASBROH! #WARONXMAS!!!!!!
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
I'm beggining to suspect that Justin is the same dude that's writing the text for those cellphone scams in bad-English-with-a-side-of-Hindi I keep receiving to tell me the police is after me because of 1 000 000 CAD in unpaid taxes, given his mastery of the English language!
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
There's a third option I'm wondering about. The product page shows two interesting cards. One shows "Tensor the Crazy Wizard" and the other shows a "Gygaxian Ring". It is possible that they received legal threats from WotC or Gail Gygax (or both) for using these names, and need to do reprints as a result. I suppose we'll know when the game finally ships and see if either of these cards make it to the final product.

As always... Hi, Michael @TSR-Hobbies! We're here asking questions about TSR, and are open to discussion any time you want to talk.
I don't blame him for the changes necessarily. Those happen. What is a huge red flag for me though, is
  • how he was promising people that they would have a ship date of 12/20 as recently as a couple weeks ago.
  • He was taking money from people based on that statement
  • he hadn't even started manufacturing any of the games, based up on his video announcement he made

Therefore, he knew he would never make a ship date of 12/20 before he even started selling pre-orders, promising that date. If I had pre-ordered this game and gave him money, I'd have some questions he needs to answer. When you combine that with the fact they still haven't produced a single game*, this is starting to feel like yet another scam.

So just in the past month, he's taking money or a fundraiser to pay for his lawsuit and is still taking money even after dropping that suit, and took money on pre-orders of a game he knew he couldn't produce as promised. At least Giantlands actually shipped yesterday.

*Dungeon Crawl isn't even their creation either. Doug at Wizard Tower Games made the game, including the prototypes, and just sold it to LaNasa recently.
 

darjr

I crit!
Huh. Ya know they’ve lied about Elmores participation before, see their fake Starfrontiers. Has anyone checked with him to confirm?
 

I don't blame him for the changes necessarily. Those happen. What is a huge red flag for me though, is
  • how he was promising people that they would have a ship date of 12/20 as recently as a couple weeks ago.
  • He was taking money from people based on that statement
  • he hadn't even started manufacturing any of the games, based up on his video announcement he made

I'm not going to disagree with you. Just to throw a few more details on the pile...

  • As of right now, the TSR web store still says "First 100 orders should go out by Dec 20 2021". For as much as they've been spamming other forums, they haven't updated their own website.
  • The website shows that they haven't sold even 300 copies yet (the limited edition run). Most board games need to sell closer to 10k units to be considered a commercial success.
  • Even at 300 units, at $50 each, the game is only a $15k opportunity (before costs!). That's on the small side for a commercial venture.
  • What type of printing do you really get when you run 100 at a time? This sounds more like a job for print-on-demand than a professional printing.
  • Look at their photos of the Star Frontiers New Genesis books to see what they've had printed so far.
  • I think you give LaNasa too much credit. There are at least two other people who have a controlling say at nuTSR: Michael Hovermale (Chief Creative Officer) and Ernie Gygax (whose name is on the box). They share responsibility for this as well.
  • Ernie, specifically, knows the problems associated with trying to publish a game with a "Gygaxian Ring", as use of the Gygax name lead to huge problems and the eventual cancellation of Gygax Magazine that he published with his brother (part of TSR2).
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
I really don't understand anyone who can look at everything TSR3 has been up to this year and still say "yes, this is a good use of my money." The best I can say about them is that they have a truly astonishing amount of blind faith.
Or a sufficient amount of animus toward the same forces driving social change that LaNasa and Co set themselves in opposition to. That's a huge factor when it comes to partisanship and tribalism when a more critical look at actual positions and records should warn you away.
 

Dire Bare

Legend
I'm not going to disagree with you. Just to throw a few more details on the pile...

  • As of right now, the TSR web store still says "First 100 orders should go out by Dec 20 2021". For as much as they've been spamming other forums, they haven't updated their own website.
  • The website shows that they haven't sold even 300 copies yet (the limited edition run). Most board games need to sell closer to 10k units to be considered a commercial success.
  • Even at 300 units, at $50 each, the game is only a $15k opportunity (before costs!). That's on the small side for a commercial venture.
  • What type of printing do you really get when you run 100 at a time? This sounds more like a job for print-on-demand than a professional printing.
  • Look at their photos of the Star Frontiers New Genesis books to see what they've had printed so far.
  • I think you give LaNasa too much credit. There are at least two other people who have a controlling say at nuTSR: Michael Hovermale (Chief Creative Officer) and Ernie Gygax (whose name is on the box). They share responsibility for this as well.
  • Ernie, specifically, knows the problems associated with trying to publish a game with a "Gygaxian Ring", as use of the Gygax name lead to huge problems and the eventual cancellation of Gygax Magazine that he published with his brother (part of TSR2).
I'm not sure Ernie Gygax has any control or say over what happens at TSR3. He's one of several old-school names being groomed and manipulated by LaNasa. Not to excuse Ernie's involvement, he's an adult, I just don't think he really has anything to do with TSR3 actually publishing (or not) games.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
I'm not sure Ernie Gygax has any control or say over what happens at TSR3. He's one of several old-school names being groomed and manipulated by LaNasa. Not to excuse Ernie's involvement, he's an adult, I just don't think he really has anything to do with TSR3 actually publishing (or not) games.
I think it's clear Ernie is only there for name recognition.

"Hey Ernie? Can we create a card based on your wizard? Great! Now we can put Gygax on the cover and keep telling people how our company is just like the original TSR!"
 

I'm not sure Ernie Gygax has any control or say over what happens at TSR3. He's one of several old-school names being groomed and manipulated by LaNasa. Not to excuse Ernie's involvement, he's an adult, I just don't think he really has anything to do with TSR3 actually publishing (or not) games.

I am reminded of a quote from Dune: "The power to destroy a thing is the absolute control over it." I think Ernie Gygax could stop nuTSR if he wanted to. If he pulled his name off the company it would destroy the ethos of the brand, the museum, TSR Con, and the Dungeon Crawl game. If an unknown local politician with a tattoo shop in North Carolina and no known game or products suddenly claimed to be the #1 name in OSR, would anyone even listen?
 

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