Tumble problems

[Celebrim]

The first thing to note is that combat Tumbling is going to come up very rarely in duels of any sort. You might see it used as part of the bonus that makes you harder to hit, or you might see it used as part of what amounts to a Feat where you've been trained to use acrobatics to disguise the direction and timing of your attacks. But the sort of tumbling we are talking about here to avoid attacks of opportunity doesn't come up very often in a fight between two unarmed fighters. The threat of drawing attacks of oppurtunity, and the consequent need to tumble to evade an attack just won't be there.

The sort of fight scenes we should be looking for are:

a) One parties intent is to disengage from the fight.
b) One party is armed with reach weapon, and the other must close inside there reach in order to attack.
c) One party is surrounded by multiple attackers and needs to move out of the ring of threats.

In those cases I'd expect to see 'realistic' uses of combat tumbling. I'm going to have to think about this a while, because I don't watch a lot of movies much less a lot of action movies where these scenes would occur, and I think bad examples are going to just harden your position rather than helping it. I mean, I can think of a good cartoon fight, but I doubt you'll accept a cartoon as evidence of realism.

Now, this is very, very interesting. So your point, Jonesy, is that Ali's footwork is...tumbling?

If it is, and I don't agree that it is, but if it is, then its not an example of using tumble to negate attacks of opportunity. What it is in my opinion is combination of Dodge and Improved Feint. Notice also that Mobility will in a fight visually emulate the effects of having Tumble, but I presume with a more upright approach to doing so. If we have any boxing fans, then I'd be interested in thread where we match fighters to the feats that they have.

Those are choreographed fights, impossible in real life.

That word; I don't think it means what you think it means. Choreographed or not, obviously the videos are evidence of the possibility of using those techniques. I think the word you are looking for is 'impractical'. Wuxia - and much of Chinese martial arts to say nothing of Chinese stage martial arts - is highly impractical in a real fight, but it is not impossible for the obvious reason that Jackie Chan does all of his own stunts.

 

[Dandu]

That word; I don't think it means what you think it means.

Hardly heroic-realistic, but I am reminded of a scene from that movie where one party is intent on disengaging from another during a duel.

 

[Jimlock]

...i'm not arguing anything with this video... it has nothing to do with tumble.
Even though its choreographed as well.. IMHO its one of the best fight scenes in a movie... that perhaps fits WBs heroic realistic...

again i'm not arguing anything here... just posting what i think is a nicely filmed fight... that's all...

[ame=http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4676294/bourne_ultimatum_jason_vs_desh_fight_scene/]Bourne Ultimatum Jason VS Desh Fight Scene - Video[/ame]

 

[Jimlock]

The first thing to note is that combat Tumbling is going to come up very rarely in duels of any sort. You might see it used as part of the bonus that makes you harder to hit, or you might see it used as part of what amounts to a Feat where you've been trained to use acrobatics to disguise the direction and timing of your attacks. But the sort of tumbling we are talking about here to avoid attacks of opportunity doesn't come up very often in a fight between two unarmed fighters. The threat of drawing attacks of oppurtunity, and the consequent need to tumble to evade an attack just won't be there.

The sort of fight scenes we should be looking for are:

a) One parties intent is to disengage from the fight.
b) One party is armed with reach weapon, and the other must close inside there reach in order to attack.
c) One party is surrounded by multiple attackers and needs to move out of the ring of threats.

In those cases I'd expect to see 'realistic' uses of combat tumbling. I'm going to have to think about this a while, because I don't watch a lot of movies much less a lot of action movies where these scenes would occur, and I think bad examples are going to just harden your position rather than helping it. I mean, I can think of a good cartoon fight, but I doubt you'll accept a cartoon as evidence of realism.

Yes this is correct. I was thinking about saying how posting duels is not gonna lead anywhere... indeed there have to be more people involved in a fight so as to see a better example of in-combat tumble. The best example so far remains the scene from LOTRs...

 

[Celebrim]

This is also a tumble.

YouTube - BEST MOVE AMERICAN FOOTBALL

I actually don't agree. That is an example of the feat 'Mobility'.

Tumble is actually pretty rare in football because you are required to stay upright in order to avoid being 'downed' by a touch, and because at the High School level the rules specifically forbid the use of vaulting and such to avoid a tackle. So that elimenates most tumbling maneuvers.

This establishes a standard though for what tumbling in combat is - it is avoiding an attack moving above or below the attack rather than around it. It will involve jumping and/or rolling. It is this that allows you to move in a straight line while avoiding attacks of oppurtunity. The one time you tend to see Tumbling in football is near the goal line because at that point, being downed still results in a score. When you see some leap above a tackle, or leap to avoid a tackle, in my opinion - in game terms - that is employing Tumble to negate an attack of oppurtunity. Reggie Bush is one of the best known players for popularizing this technique.

Consider the following:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7wQ_e-f90g[/ame]

Notice that Reggie employs the technique both as a useless flourish involving showmanship, and as a legitimate means of evading attacks. Also notice that he's atheletic enough that, should he wanted to do so, he could have rolled to his feet and continued running. There are examples of mid-field hurdling over attackers:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3Yur-46blE&feature=related[/ame]

 

[Water Bob]

I'm just confused as to what is acceptable.

I think you just like being difficult and are pretending you don't see a difference in what I posted and those Asian ballets.

But, in order to answer in case you are genuine and not trying to be an ass, let's just say that what is acceptable as heroic-realistic is what satisfies my sensiblities of dramatic realism. There's a point that will blow my suspension of disbelief. If a scene goes past that point, it's not heroic-realism.

That word; I don't think it means what you think it means.

I did mean to say "choreographed", but I get your point in that all fight scenes, realistic or super-heroic, are choreographed.

... that perhaps fits WBs heroic realistic...

It's a great example of what I would call heroic-realistic.

 

[Dandu]

I think you just like being difficult and are pretending you don't see a difference in what I posted and those Asian ballets.

I'm not saying that everything Jackie Chan does is acceptable, but the parts where he's just rolling to get away from something surely don't strain suspension of disbelief more then when James Bond does it?

In Drunken Master 2, Jackie is backed up against a table and the boss is going to land a kick on him. Jackie ducks, dives to the side, and rolls away.

How is this an "Asian ballet"? Because an Asian is doing it?

But, in order to answer in case you are genuine and not trying to be an ass, let's just say that what is acceptable as heroic-realistic is what satisfies my sensiblities of dramatic realism. There's a point that will blow my suspension of disbelief. If a scene goes past that point, it's not heroic-realism.

So basically you're asking me to prove to you that Tumble is dramatic-realistic, using your sense of dramatic realism. Take a scene that you acknowledge as acceptable and show you how it has examples of tumbling.

Fine. What about James Bond dodging the machete wielding minion in the stairwell so he can get past him and down to Vesper? Or the part where he tumbles backwards down the stairs?

 

[Water Bob]

I'm not saying that everything Jackie Chan does is acceptable, but the parts where he's just rolling to get away from something surely don't strain suspension of disbelief more then when James Bond does it?

It's hard to separate a second or half-second motion from all the crazy Asian Dance stuff in those videos.

So basically you're asking me to prove to you that Tumble is dramatic-realistic, using your sense of dramatic realism. Take a scene that you acknowledge as acceptable and show you how it has examples of tumbling.

No. I've come to terms with tumbling, as I stated a few posts up thread.

Fine. What about James Bond dodging the machete wielding minion in the stairwell so he can get past him and down to Vesper? Or the part where he tumbles backwards down the stairs?

Falling and recovering? Not necessarily tumbling, but I can see the argument.

 

[Dandu]

It's hard to separate a second or half-second motion from all the crazy Asian Dance stuff in those videos.

Right, which is why I gave you the time at which it occurred and a short summary of what to look for as per your request.

 

[Celebrim]

This has proven to be a really really hard challenge.

It's hard to find good acrobatic moves in a realisticly shot fight scene. Most of what I looked at either was a straight up fight between two individuals, was shot in speeded up film, was using wire work, or featured the sort of often comic highly stylized combat of Hong Kong action films. This last one was a really tough one because Jackie Chan is the king of acrobatic evasion moves, but most of his movies - and especially the stuff from when he is young - features fights that look more like dances than fights. I wanted to get some old Douglas Fairbanks who did alot of both acrobatic moves mixed with hyperrealistic fencing, but finding good footage of films that old to search through was tough.

Still, I have some entries that come close.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0xB8niA4Jk]YouTube - Ip Man vs 10 Black Belts..[/ame]

At about 1:42 the protagonist uses a rolling move to obtain separation from an attacker on his flank, thereby negating the attack of opportunity. The fight has some silliness typical of 1 vs. many fights where everyone stands back watching while a series of 1 on 1 fights occur, but the move itself is reasonable to me.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rWvTloOeAY&feature=related]YouTube - Kiss of the Dragon - Police Station Fight[/ame]

At about 1:16, watch Jet Li perform a manuever similar to a wrestling take down move, but with the intention not of initiating a grapple, but of moving through a large number of attackers while avoiding their club. Also note the quick move at 1:25 where he drops to one knee to get under an attack. Both are 'tumble' moves in my opinion, the last one being an example of a very subtle vertical manuever that nonetheless is acrobatic.

Finally, this is cartoon but it's a well choreographed fight that in my opinion remains in the realm of 'D&D realism'.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2wEj2lvplY]YouTube - Sokka's Master[/ame]

Lot's of use of tumbling as the student tries to get away from the master he's insulted.