Tumble problems

[Rhun]

This. The mechanics don't mean that a 1st level character only swings once in six seconds, just that the rest don't really have a chance of hitting.

Absolutely. If you look at the Zorro video Dandu posted above, how many thrusts, slashes, parries, etc. are exchanged in a 6-second period? 10+? I have always assumed that an "attack" is a series of exchanges between combatants.

 

[Celebrim]

You've been going on like a broken record about how the relatively tame stunts Jackie pulls are still "crazy asian dance stuff" for pages but have yet to explain why.

Fine, I'll answer on his behalf.

So please, tell us, what makes something crazy asian dance stuff?

Well, first of all, most Chinese stage fights are supposed to look like a dance. Especially the traditional Chinese martial arts movies where you have little western influence are going to be choreographed like elaborate precision dancing. Often the intention is not to show any sort of real fight, but to allow the martials artist to showcase the precision with which they can perform certain forms and the range of knowledge that they have. The connoisseur of this art form isn't expecting it to look like a real battle; he's expecting to see a great diversity of very clean, very rapid, very controlled movements. In many cases the choreography of the scene is designed to run through the full series of forms associated with a particular style of fighting.

Now real fighting even with Eastern martial arts doesn't look like that, and we would be very ignorant to assume that real Eastern martial artists were always unaware of the visual difference between a real fight and stagecraft. But the makers of these movies made a choice to emphasis what they believed was important about martial arts - not the bloody chaotic reality of actual combat, but the artistic expression of martial arts in a way they felt was beautiful.

Hense, 'dance'.

An example that is highly admired by people who care about such things and which might be very instructive is this one:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkXtlObWQH0&feature=related]YouTube - Invincible Pole Fighter aka Eight Diagram Pole Fighter (clip)[/ame]

Now, that is obviously dance, but what about 'crazy'. Well, the above is 'crazy' in the sense that you'd have to be crazy to think that real fights are like that, or to think that most of what happens in the fight is practical and realistic. However, when we get to something like Jackie Chan, we can use 'crazy' in a more intuitive way. The reason is that Jackie Chan is and always has been a comedy star. Most Hong Kong action flims are intended to be highly funny to the audience, and Jackie Chan is a master of it. In many cases, a fight in a traditional martial arts flick is intended to be the equivalent of a Buster Keaton movie or a Three Stooges slapstick reutine. There is a lot of physical comedy, a lot of physical sight gags occurring that are supposed to draw laughs from the audience, and quite often the protagonist is deliberately clowning around in a very literal sense.

Jackie Chan is the acknowledged master of this. He almost always plays what amounts to a clown or jester, who in one way or the other makes a fool of his 'straight man' partners in the scene whether they are the overly serious villains or the stern masters (or love interests) who take martial arts very seriously and are trying to instill the same displine in their wreckless and unserious charge. Jackie Chan's fight scenes are almost always deliberately silly. You are supposed to both be in awe of the skill and agility he demonstrates, and guffaw when he hits someone with a ladder, has to fight while juggling something he doesn't want to break, knocks his foe down the divider between the escalators, or takes a shot to the crotch. The overall effect is well silly by design.

Hense, 'crazy'.

So when you show a Jackie Chan scene to someone looking to inform his game with realism and gritty combat, even if individual moves within the scene might be probable, the context around them is so improbable and so obviously staged and so unserious that its distracting. Why should we expect the viewer to be able to pick out the fraction of a second of realism in he midst of 5 minutes of stylized comedic stagecraft? Why wouldn't we expect the viewer to focus not on the very quick very subtle moves of realistic combat acrobatics, instead of the elaborate set peices of gymnastics and wire work in both western and eastern action movies?

Can't we at least try to be charitable and understanding here?

 

[Water Bob]

Oh Water Bob... shall I compare thee to a summer's day? Thou art more lovely, and more temperate.

Well, c'mon, man. I'm sorry for being an ass, but I've been trying to drop it for two pages now, and you just won't let it go.

 

[Eridanis]

Well, c'mon, man. I'm sorry for being an ass, but I've been trying to drop it for two pages now, and you just won't let it go.

Let's make this a little more official: please drop the antagonism, Dandu, and get back on topic.

 

[Hassassin]

I'm going on a tangent here, but now that we've identified all these types of combat tumbling, I'm wondering if there are any feats that have Tumble ranks as a prerequisite.

If there aren't, maybe there should be. For example, I might allow 4e Shift (10' move action without AoOs) as a feat for anyone with Tumble ranks. It might also fit as an alternative prerequisite to Combat Expertise.

 

[Jimlock]

I'm going on a tangent here, but now that we've identified all these types of combat tumbling, I'm wondering if there are any feats that have Tumble ranks as a prerequisite.

If there aren't, maybe there should be. For example, I might allow 4e Shift (10' move action without AoOs) as a feat for anyone with Tumble ranks. It might also fit as an alternative prerequisite to Combat Expertise.

ACROBATIC STRIKE

[FIGHTER BONUS FEAT, GENERAL]

Your dexterous maneuvers and skilled acrobatics allow you to slip past a foe's defenses and deliver an accurate strike against him.

Prerequisite: Tumble 12 ranks

Benefit: If you succeed in using Tumble to avoid an opponent's attack of opportunity, you gain a +4 bonus on the next attack that you make against that foe as long as the attack occurs before the end of your current turn.

Special: A fighter can select Acrobatic Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Rulebook: Players handbook II (p. 71)



COMBAT ACROBAT

[FIGHTER BONUS FEAT, GENERAL]

Your acrobatics and agility in combat allow you to maneuver across the battlefi eld with ease. You stay on your feet and speed over diffi cult terrain due to your superior athleticism and acrobatic talents.

Prerequisite: Balance 9 ranks, Tumble 9 ranks

Benefit: You gain several BENEFITS: from this feat to refl ect your overall athletic ability and training in the skills vital to an acrobat. Acrobatic Recovery: If an effect causes you to fall prone, you can make a DC 20 Balance check to remain on your feet. Sure Footed Maneuver: With a DC 15 Balance check, you can ignore up to 4 squares of diffi cult terrain while moving. You treat these squares as normal terrain. You still endure any effects or hazards associated with the terrain. For example, a shallow pool of boiling water might dealfiredamage and count as diffi cult terrain. You would still take damage from the water even if your Balance check allowed you to move through it at full speed.

Special: A fighter can select Combat Acrobat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Rulebook: Players handbook II (p. 76)



....and some skill tricks from Comp. Scoundrel...

aCrobaTIC baCksTab [MoveMenT]
You dart past your opponent’s attacks, ending up perfectly positioned for a devastating counterattack .
Prerequisite: Tumble 12 ranks .
Benefit: If you succeed on a Tumble check to move through an enemy’s space, you can treat that enemy as flat-footed against the next melee attack you make against it on your current turn .
Your enemy must be standing on the ground or floor in order for you to use this trick

baCk on Your feeT [MoveMenT]
You can hop back to your feet instantly if you fall . Prerequisite: Tumble 12 ranks . Benefit: If you fall prone for any reason, you can stand
up as an immediate action without provoking attacks of opportunity

nIMble sTand [MoveMenT]
You can rely on your acrobatic talent to stand up from prone safely .
Prerequisite: Tumble 8 ranks .
Benefit: You can stand up from prone without provok- ing attacks of opportunity

slIPPIng PasT [MoveMenT]
You can slip through a tight space without breaking stride .
Prerequisite:
Escape Artist 5 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks .
Benefit: As a swift action, you can ignore the additional movement cost and penalty on attack rolls and to AC when squeezing through a narrow space (PH 148) . The benefit lasts until the start of your next turn

TuMblIng CraWl [MoveMenT]
You can safely roll away from danger . Prerequisite: Tumble 5 ranks . Benefit: By succeeding on a DC 15 Tumble check, you
can crawl 5 feet as a move action without provoking attacks of opportunity . Crawling normally provokes attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point during your crawl (PH 142)

TWIsTed Charge [MoveMenT]
You can charge in a crooked line . Prerequisite: Balance 5 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks . Benefit: When you charge, you can make one turn of
up to 90 degrees during your movement . You can’t move more than your speed as part of this charge . All other restrictions on charges still apply, and you must have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn

Walk The Walls [MoveMenT]
You can run straight up a wall for a few seconds . Prerequisite: Climb 12 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks . Benefit: You can move up a wall without making a Climb check . Each 5 feet of vertical movement costs you 4 squares of movement, and you must begin and end your turn on a horizontal surface

 

[kitcik]

Try this.