Tumble too powerful?

[Celebrim]

I just will add my system, it may be mentioned already in the 11 pages below your post.

A creature who tumbles must make an opposed roll against the creature's attack roll who is trying to attempt an AoO against it. If the tumbler wins, there is no attack. If the attacking creature wins, they roll again to see if they can hit the tumbler's AC. Works well, one extra roll, but no one seems to mind.

This works and has some advantages, and resisted rolls are intuitive but well, "one extra roll". I used to do things this way. But hose extra rolls add up in a hurry as you add granularity to the game. As such, I've gotten away from resisted rolls in my house rules as much as possible, preferring to use relative DCs to determine the target. This keeps play speedy.

I allow "tumbling" in all movement types (flying, swimming, burrowing, normal).

I do as well provided you have a natural movement speed in the appropriate movement type. For example, normally humans can't tumble while climbing or swimming (or flying), but many other creatures could.

Flying creatures also get a bonus to tumble on the basis of their maneuverability class.

I think the main reasoning behind this change was to impress on the tumbling character that it is harder to do so against creatures that outclass them.

It's a pretty standard fight scene trope, that acrobatic attackers may evade lesser foes but are beat down by the highly skilled.

 

[Kchaka]

I've played 3.5 for a long time and even though my characters always had Tumble, I too think it was too easy. It alienated tactical movement by almost removing AoO for moving. AoOs are an important part of game mechanics that should not be overcome so easily, they are important to warriors to prevent enemies from running away from them and to pose a threat between the enemies and the squishy characters, without it it's all just hack-n-slash.

The static DC also bugged me, it didn't take in account the skill of the enemy. To add the BAB to the DC sounds like a good option.

We're now playing Pathfinder and now I find the CMD DC too hard to beat, to a point where the risk is too great and it's better Not to tumble at all.

We have been trying a system that simply adds Dodge bonus to the AC according to your tumble skill and it's been working well so far. I would like your insight.

For every 4 points you have in Acrobatics, you gain +1 Dodge bonus to AC agains Attacks of Opportunity caused when you move out of of within a threatened area when you Tumble as part of your movement. You need to have at least 4 ranks in Acrobatics to gain this benefit. You Tumble at half your speed, unless you take a -4 penalty to your AC. You cannot tumble to improve your AC while moving past your foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Tumble in this way. You can use Tumble in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and you suffer a -2 penalty to your AC.

It's quite simple, which speeds up game play. There's no more avoiding the AoO, instead you just get a Dodge bonus to your AC. This way EVERYTHING is accounted for, the Foe's ability with his weapon, any spells and other bonuses he has to improve his attack, any spells and bonuses you have to improve your defense, if it's a normal attack you'll get to use your normal AC, if it's a touch attack you'll use your touch AC, if you were already easy to hit, now you're a little harder to hit, if you were already hard to hit, now you're even harder, every variable is included which makes it very realistic. It works pretty much like the Mobility feat.

If you wanna move though an enemie's square, you take a -2 penalty to your AC, but he'll still get to make only one AoO agains you. If he does hit you, you didn't get past him and you stop your movement on the closes legal square you came from adjacent to him. (We're considering to Not stop the movement, the enemy can use his AoO to Trip if he wants)

If you are Tumbling through multiple foes, for each AoO you have already suffered for moving this way in this round, be it a hit or miss, you suffer a -1 penalty to AC againts your next AoO also for moving this way.

As for the combat modifiers, they now give penalties to AC like this:

-2 to DC ----- -1 to AC
-5 to DC ----- -2 to AC
-10 to DC ----- -4 to AC (earthquake)

We're still adjusting these number, but so far it's become a realiable option.

Please, share your thoughts about this, if you also find the CMD rule questionable, and if not, why.

 

[Celebrim]

We have been trying a system that simply adds Dodge bonus to the AC according to your tumble skill and it's been working well so far. I would like your insight.

For every 4 points you have in Acrobatics, you gain +1 Dodge bonus to AC agains Attacks of Opportunity caused when you move out of of within a threatened area when you Tumble as part of your movement.

1) It's too weak. It will almost never be worth it to tumble as an evasive action.

2) One of the advantages of my system, roll Tumble versus 15 + <foe's BAB>, is that in many cases for a character focused in Tumbling, it's an automatic success with no roll needed to cancel the AoO. You can't speed play more than that.

 

[Kchaka]

2) One of the advantages of my system, roll Tumble versus 15 + <foe's BAB>, is that in many cases for a character focused in Tumbling, it's an automatic success with no roll needed to cancel the AoO. You can't speed play more than that.

We are trying to avoid the automatic success. We think that there are some situations, like facing a powerfull and skilled Fighter, where tumble should have a small chance of success, 50% at best agains a focused tumbler.

I also like how this way acrobatis gives a bonus that adds to you defense, seems more fair. If you were easy to hit, now you can't just slide under the Ogre and get away with it, and if you where hard to hit and manage to have a good acrobatics, your defense now shows that you are that much more nimble. The more acrobatis you have will simply dimish the chance the enemy has to hit you.

1) It's too weak. It will almost never be worth it to tumble as an evasive action.

I wonder about that too. At lvl 8, our rogue has acrobatics 24 [Dex 26(Belt +4 Dex) +5(Boots of Elvenkind, the only thing I found that gives a bonus to acrobatis in genera, not only to jump checks)], that gives +6 Dodge bonus to AC while Tumbling, half-speed. With Mobility, he now has +10 Dodge bonus to AC agains these AoO. So far he's only been hit by Fighet/Barbarians (and a crocodile's lucky crit). I wonder if it will still work at lvl 16+.

Also, this way is always worth to tumble, you have only to gain, if you have the movement to spare.

 

[Celebrim]

We are trying to avoid the automatic success. We think that there are some situations, like facing a powerfull and skilled Fighter, where tumble should have a small chance of success, 50% at best agains a focused tumbler.

a) DC 15 + BAB means that the DC versus a powerful and skilled fighter is obviously higher. Whether its as high as you would like is a somewhat different matter. I will say that in my game it's considerably harder to get such nice boosting magic items as you have in your example, but then magic items are priced radically differently in my game and there are different assumptions of accessibility compared to the stock game.
b) I have in my campaign a feat called 'Countermoves' that among other things raises the DC of tumbling through your space by 5, so a powerful and skilled fighter who had the schtick of controlling his space would obviously take this.

I also like how this way acrobatis gives a bonus that adds to you defense, seems more fair. If you were easy to hit, now you can't just slide under the Ogre and get away with it, and if you where hard to hit and manage to have a good acrobatics, your defense now shows that you are that much more nimble. The more acrobatis you have will simply dimish the chance the enemy has to hit you.

Frankly, this sounds a lot like process simulation for its own sake. That is to say, if we are computing "What are the odds that an acrobat tumbles up to the ogre and gets away with it", decreasing the odds of tumble succeeding while increasing the odds that the ogre misses amounts to no real net change.

I wonder about that too. At lvl 8, our rogue has acrobatics 24 [Dex 26(Belt +4 Dex) +5(Boots of Elvenkind, the only thing I found that gives a bonus to acrobatis in genera, not only to jump checks)], that gives +6 Dodge bonus to AC while Tumbling, half-speed. With Mobility, he now has +10 Dodge bonus to AC agains these AoO. So far he's only been hit by Fighet/Barbarians (and a crocodile's lucky crit). I wonder if it will still work at lvl 16+.

First, let me clarify, does the +6 dodge bonus to AC while Tumbling only apply to AoO (as was applied in your earlier post) or does it apply against all attacks? The former I claim is weak. The later I would agree is quite powerful indeed.

A +6 dodge bonus to AC at lvl 8 would presumbly, if we assume your base AC is already around 23 or so, give you close to 95% immunity to most peer level foes (most NPCs would need a 20 to hit you). I would however say that with 24 acrobatics, you'd probably ALSO get 95% immunity or better to most peer level foes applying my rule of 15 + BAB. Again, you've moved the odds around a very small bit, but in terms of outcome you've not done all that much.

What you have done is a) ensure the AoO is always rolled just to check that 5% chance of a natural 20, and b) moved the fortune determination from the PC's die roll to an NPC's roll. This is IMO not an improvement.

You've also probably weakened Tumble as an option at the high end. That is to say, against non-peer foes (higher than your CR, and in particularly high CR period regardless of your CR), you've probably made Tumble less viable (which admittedly from your initial write up seems to have been your intention). I'm guessing this based on looking at what 'to hit bonus' probably gets you 95% immunity. My version means your 8th level acrobat can reliably tumble past say a 10th level fighter, and has even very high odds against much higher CR opponents. Your version means your 8th level acrobat even maximized with Mobility only has an AC around 33 and probably gets hit by even a 10th level non-optimized fighter (or a dragon, or an equivalent outsider) nearly half the time - which is why I said that it's no longer worth risking the AoO or investing in Tumble/Acrobatics relative to just investing in straight up AC. More to the point, it means that unless you have invested heavily in AC, this is useless. Keep in mind, when you draw an AoO you are granting actions to the opponent. It would in many cases be worth it to not attack a powerful foe, rather than to risk an exchange attacks if his blows do more damage than yours. This is IMO not an improvement. Skills are too weak in stock D20 as it is, and you are risking decreasing the fluidity and mobility of combat.

 

[Kchaka]

a) DC 15 + BAB means that the DC versus a powerful and skilled fighter is obviously higher. Whether its as high as you would like is a somewhat different matter.

True. We have set the bar pretty high. We wanna keep it hard to avoid the AoO, but not so hard as CMD as DC vs a skill check. (CMD is Touch AC +BAB +STR +Size mod)

First, let me clarify, does the +6 dodge bonus to AC while Tumbling only apply to AoO (as was applied in your earlier post) or does it apply against all attacks? The former I claim is weak. The later I would agree is quite powerful indeed.

Only to AoO while tumbling.

decreasing the odds of tumble succeeding while increasing the odds that the ogre misses amounts to no real net change.

I would however say that with 24 acrobatics, you'd probably ALSO get 95% immunity or better to most peer level foes applying my rule of 15 + BAB.

15 + BAB is a very good rule. It's sound and simple. We could use this rule, but we wanna adjust the numbers on this other one to make it work, we think it will make the results more umpredictable with all the different Attack & AC modifiers that can come up during combat.

Your version means your 8th level acrobat even maximized with Mobility only has an AC around 33 and probably gets hit by even a 10th level non-optimized fighter (or a dragon, or an equivalent outsider) nearly half the time - which is why I said that it's no longer worth risking the AoO

Yep, I made a mistake whe I said it would always be worth tumbling, there will be times when the risk of getting hit will be too high and it will probably be better not to tumble.

I think we understand each other, you want to have situations where you'll have 0% chance of failure in tumble, and I want to make sure AoO will not be easily avoided, but I also wanna be able to benefit from tumble at some level, even when the odds aren't great. Both systems are good options to replace the basic 3.5 DC15 and the Pathfinder CMD DC, but ours still needs some tweaking to get where we want.

It's also good to notice that, in this system, the enemy spends his AoO, even if the tumble is successfull, but at least he got to take a swing at you.



BTW, this question came up in another forum that got me thinking:

Q: If you tumble to avoid AoO, does the enemy spends his AoO?
A: No

This makes no sense. Picture this, a Rogue decides to tumble through a Large Ogre threatened area.

The Rogue moves up to the start of the Ogre's threatened area and start to roll or whatever at half speed (for some reason, moving at half speed makes you harder to hit).

The Ogre sees the Rogue rolling by him and thinks: "Damn, he's rolling, I can't take a swing at him!"

If the Rogue succeeds the check, has to move through all threatened squares at half speed.

This is how it should be:

The Rogue moves up to the start of the Ogre's threatened area and says "Yo! DM, I'm gonna tumble past the Ogre, do you wanna take a swing at me?" and he shows how he wants to move, but doesn't roll the tumble check yet.

The Ogre sees the Rogue rolling by him and thinks: "Damn, he's rolling, I'm not sure if I'm gonna hit that. Maybe I should let him go and wait for that chubby Cleric instead, when he tries to pass."

IF the Ogre chooses to not attack the Rogue, he forces him to spend more of his movement by walking the whole way at half speed, and saves his AoO for someone else.

If the Ogre does choose to attack the Rogue, he chooses in which square the attack will take place, and then the rogue rolls his tumble.

If the tumble succeeds, the Ogre's attack misses and the rogue can just walk the rest of the way, since the Ogre won't be able to attack him again for the same movement, just like anyone else that initialy just tries to pass thorugh the Ogre.

If the tumble fails, the Ogre's attack may hit the Rogue or not. Either way the Rogue can now move the rest of the way normaly, if he didn't die or got knocked prone.

In the end, the Ogre can choose to take a swing at the tumbler or not, but he won't know if the tumble was successfull or not until after he chooses.

This makes more sense, except for the part where moving at half speed makes you harder to hit, that part still doesn't.

 

[Angrydad]

I never had issues with players just Tumbling around the battlefield (seeing as how it reduces movement to half) and even if they do, it just means they're set to make an attack. Nothing stops the enemy from repositioning with a 5' step on their turn to get out of being flanked or whatnot (I realize things could, but for simplicity, it's not that game-breaking). In all, it's a nice way for a squishier character to move without getting punished badly and maybe land a good shot afterwards.

 

[Kchaka]

Even with half movement, 15ft is enough to get away from most foes avoiding their AoO, and you can even doit at full speed if you have enough skill, and we don't like this easy way to avoid the AoO, we think moving in combat Should be hard, considering all the enemy threats instead of just moving to where you want and strike.

Rogues are the only class that are more dependent of movement and positioning in combat, and even though they aready have tumble/acrobatics as a class skill and Dex as their primary ability, they could have a rogue talent to help at that. For the others, they all should have their movement limited in combat, after all that's what a warrior does when he's trying to protect someone, he stands in the way threatening anyone who tries to pass.