Tumble too powerful?

[N'raac]

While not presented as an opposed check, when tumbling, one usually is maneuvering past an opponent who, presumably, would like to make an attack against you. That seems to fit better as an opposed check (with a variable difficulty depending on the opponent) than a static check.

While I see the merit to that position, does it not suggest Concentration to cast a spell defensively ought also to be an opposed roll? Is the roll to determine whether you are able to avoid the target's attack (such that a more skilled opponent is more likely to get that attack in), or to avoid presenting a special opportunity for him to take that attack (flat DC)? Maybe there ought to be an opposed roll before it is assumed my action dropped my defenses to even allow my attacker a free shot.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Once again, SHOW ME THE CHARACTER. The full character, stats, spellbook, wealth by level, equipment (including spells he had to pay for and encumbrance),

Already done.

skills,

lolno. Unnecessary.

[class, level, feats,

Already done.

spell load carried, at a mid level.

Have you EVER played a wizard? Seriously, there is so much wrong with this I don't know where to start.

I keep coming back to 7th level. Show me the Omnipotent Wizard you keep crowing about, unbeatable from L1 to present, built legally,

Already done.

with page and book references for each choice.

Google it yourself.

That's about as clear as I can make it. A skeletal outline is not "a character".

It has everything you need.

In regards to the above, your skills will be especially interesting since you need to direct 4 skill points per level (16 at L1) to cross class skills. Assuming you start with an 18 INT, that leaves 2 skills you can max out, spellcraft presumably being one.

Grey elf. Intelligence 20. Do try to keep up.

I don't see those huge initiative bonuses you crowed about earlier either.

Then you weren't and aren't paying attention.

To the feats, I could one at L1, one at L3, a Wizard bonus at L5 and one at L6. That's four. You list five.

Flaws. It's simple. Although, honestly, the Uncanny Forethought line is entirely uncessary.

BTW, how far from the rest of the group do you huddle, casting spells blindly?

Context.

Not restricted to this build, but your general theory that the wizard is never targeted because he's some distance away and out of sight.

No, he's never targeted because he's not an idiot and doesn't expose himself.

Maybe you can spell out what "had 9s since L1" is intended to refer to.

Having 9th level spells at level 1.

I rather suspect a very liberal (mis)read of some rules, yet again.

Not my problem. It really is clear as day, though.

Or maybe not - I'm with you, once again, on that last item. Oh, and depending on your strength and how many spellbooks your collection requires, as well as how many spells you wish to obtain beyond your 2 per level, I suggest your possessions may matter more than you assume.

You're joking, right?

OK, let's make it easier for you. One: I do not believe you can target a spell blindly. If it has targets, you must see or touch them.

And you can target squares.

Even Mindsight is clear that "the creature knows what square each thinking being is in, but it does not see the being". So you are down to areas. As noted previously for spreads, "Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can’t see." This indicates your point of origin must be visible to you. Guess what? That means your spotter is in the spread if it is to reach enemies beyond him.

Again, if your friend is that incompetent, I don't care.

So when you are behind a corner, getting descriptions from other party members (or detecting intelligent targets by mindsight - which includes your teammates, by the way, although knowing type and intelligence should help in most cases), even if I accept you have a 100% perfect understanding of the area and its contents, you still cannot cast a spell around a corner. As is typically the case, the Omnipotent Wizard tends to result from a combination of favourable game style and a loose read, or simply ignoring, some of the rules.

No, it stems from a basic understanding of the rules, but whatever makes you feel better about yourself is okay.

 

[N'raac]

Already done. lolno. Unnecessary. Already done.

No, actually, it's not.

Grey elf. Intelligence 20. Do try to keep up.

Except your post doesn't say "grey elf", it says "elven". Hence, "show me the entire character".

Flaws. It's simple. Although, honestly, the Uncanny Forethought line is entirely uncessary.

Again, show me the whole character.

No, he's never targeted because he's not an idiot and doesn't expose himself.

What a sheltered life your DM has allowed your characters to lead...

Having 9th level spells at level 1.

Ditto.

I rather suspect a very liberal (mis)read of some rules, yet again.

It really is clear as day, though.

Indeed...

And you can target squares.

And/or intersections, depending on the spell in question. But you still need a clear line of effect "to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect".

I really should not have to repeat that to someone who challenges others' reading comprehension, but que sera.

Anyone else there want to tell me that I'm missing the boat, here's a page reference, of course you can cast spells around corners, we've always played with a wizard and a spotter? I do have to agree that a vote of 1 to 1 isn't overly persuasive as to a norm in most games.

 

[Celebrim]

While I see the merit to that position, does it not suggest Concentration to cast a spell defensively ought also to be an opposed roll?

No, it suggests concentration check to cast a spell defensively should not be allowed. Spellcasters have enough advantages without easy access to spells in the middle of melee. Add to the fact that it really makes no sense. Concentration relates to Constitution, which isn't really associated with evasion. While it makes some sense to have to make a Concentration check to engage in evasive action, say to retain a dexterity bonus while in melee, it makes no sense to suggest that it auto-succeeds in making you evasive.

However, barring this corrective measure, yes it should be an opposed roll.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

So not only do you refuse to read any of my posts thoroughly, but you show minimal systems mastery to say the least, and refuse to accept it when I spell it out for you.

Let me put it this way: The build I made has Shapechange at level one. Dead stop, the end, I accept your concession. There, that was fun.

 

[billd91]

Let me put it this way: The build I made has Shapechange at level one. Dead stop, the end, I accept your concession. There, that was fun.

You're going to have to show a build that doesn't use an obviously warped interpretation of Versatile Spellcaster - which doesn't allow you to trade spells up to shapechange at first level.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

You're going to have to show a build that doesn't use an obviously warped interpretation of Versatile Spellcaster - which doesn't allow you to trade spells up to shapechange at first level.

Actually, Versatile Spellcaster is working as intended, it's not the really the trick. Elven Generalist and Domain Wizard both give slots. That's how it work. As odd as it is, Versatile Spellcaster is almost completely fault-free here.

 

[billd91]

Actually, Versatile Spellcaster is working as intended, it's not the really the trick. Elven Generalist and Domain Wizard both give slots. That's how it work. As odd as it is, Versatile Spellcaster is almost completely fault-free here.

You're still not getting to 9th level spells by having 2 extra spell slots at 1st level. You could burn the two to cast one more 2nd level spell but that's pretty much it. You never end up actually raising the level of a slot you can cast with those 3 factors - you just use the slots you have to cast a spell one level higher.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

You're still not getting to 9th level spells by having 2 extra spell slots at 1st level. You could burn the two to cast one more 2nd level spell but that's pretty much it. You never end up actually raising the level of a slot you can cast with those 3 factors - you just use the slots you have to cast a spell one level higher.

Nope, you're not getting it. Elf Wizard gives you an extra slot at the highest level you can cast. Everything else then adjusts for you having 2s. Rinse, repeat.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

You're still not getting to 9th level spells by having 2 extra spell slots at 1st level. You could burn the two to cast one more 2nd level spell but that's pretty much it. You never end up actually raising the level of a slot you can cast with those 3 factors - you just use the slots you have to cast a spell one level higher.

The interpretation is that since the character can now cast 2nd level spells, it gets extra slots at 2nd level due to Elven Generalist and Domain Wizard, and the cycle continues from those two slots.

However, even if it works in theory (big if there since the wording definitely isn't agreed upon to actually give that ability) it's only good for theoretical optimization. There's no chance any sane DM is going to allow getting 9th level spells at 1st level. Trying a trick like that is something that will get most people simply banned from the table, and rightfully so. Since this discussion is about actual play across many tables who will most assuredly not allow that kind of cheese to work, the trick should be disallowed.

By the way Cyclone, when you're the one making claims, you're the one who must show the entirety of your claims, preferably with citations, if you want people to actually take you seriously. The onus is on you to show your work.