Tumble too powerful?

Uncanny Forethought says hi.
When it comes down to basically complete fiat, though, it does.

I see nothing wrong with a GM not blanket allowing every ability ever published in an article to be added to his game. One issue with ongoing expansion is the need (and inability) to test how each new element combines with everything that is already out there. This is why many games gradually collapse under their own weight. It's also why a lot of CCG's keep a rolling set of "tournament legal" cards, as having older cards gradually fall off limits the combinations that must be considered (and not republishing problem ones limits their time as problems). The later the release, the less likely errata was considered post-release, as most businesses will focus on their current edition, not the one they aren't printing (so no new sales) any more.

Third Eye: Clarity. Cheap, effective, never leave home without it.

Again, waiting for the complete build, with WBL equipment and actual spells carried (and slots left empty). There's also nothing wrong with a ruling that a condition you choose to impose on yourself (like the Dave effect of Celerity) is a requirement of the spell - negating the drawback also negates the benefit.

Cool. And if you ban every spell above second level, wizards are totally balanced, amirite?

There is a lot of space between "ban every spell" (or feat, magic item, class, prestige class, etc.) and "assess each spell, interpret the words in a balanced manner and, in the most extreme case, modify or remove the spell". I find the later releases as 3.5 wound down tend to show evidence of poorer consideration of balance.

We seem to not only have different definitions of "overpowered," considering how you appear to find Complete Scoundrel and Tome of Magic overpowered, but also "making it into later editions," given the abundance of extra actions in 4e.

There is a difference between "every late release was 100% overpowered" and "later editions had the advantage of pulling out the gems and leaving the dross behind".

I've already given it to you.

You've tossed out an array of feats, races, spells, and other aspects of a character. You have not set out that L7 (or select a mid-level for ease of reference) indexed character which a GM could review. That's my standard.

Wand chambers. Do try to keep up.

Again, full build, all items costed for WBL, encumbrance computed. You still need the item at hand - now its heavier.

If my partymates were such Darwin Award material as to get caught in my spell, I'm not feeling terribly sympathetic.

You're entitled to play your character. I'm entitled to play mine. My vote is that the wizard FriendlyFire be removed from the team. Let's see how the rest of my teammates feel about that.

...Please, please try to at least achieve a minimal level of reading comprehension.

To repeat, if you can't see, so much for spells with targets. The fact that a spread's "effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can’t see." implies it can't be cast to start somewhere you can't see, and that this is an exception to most areas of effect. It's amazing how actually reading and interpreting the rules can assist in addressing perceived issues of overpowered characters. And it's interesting to be challenged on my reading comprehension for stating that.

Then you obviously have some problems with spacial reasoning. Again, hardly my problem.

Sadly, we cannot meet in an open field or dimly lit corridor to have you point out the exact spot you would target a 20' radius effect at to strike five targets and miss three others. Much less do this in about 1 second, or with your back turned rom a third party's verbal descriptions. I'm sure you would impress us all. As to the average person's spatial reasoning, ask an auto body shop whether they can stay in business relying on people making errors in split second special reasoning.

Because it's against the rules.

Please cite the specific rule which says "playing gridless is not permitted". I believe you'll find a comment in most post-core rules books that those rules are optional, such that the GM is following the rules to allow, and disallow, whichever of them he sees fit, by the way.

Are you familiar with the concept of "area of effect?" Or at least the word "radius?"

And we're back to perfection of spacial reasoning, with no ability to perceive the target. Interesting how you feel it appropriate to critique the reading comprehension of others. As a colleague of mine once asked in a meeting, do you believe it is remotely possible someone could understand your point, yet still disagree with it, or is that impossible in your world? Again, sadly, no way to perform an objective test.

In any case, the issue of whether wizards are omnipotent or actually face challenges in most games is hardly germane to the thread, and the last couple of posts make it pretty clear there's negligible value in continuing the discussion.
 
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CR 1: Ghoul (DC 14), Gnoll (DC 13), Troglodyte (DC 11),
CR 5: Troll (DC 22), Green Hag (DC 24), Manticore (DC 24), Mummy (DC 23), Bearded Devil (DC 22)
CR 10: Clay Golem (DC 30), Fire Giant (DC 31), Rakshasa (DC 29)
CR 15: Adult Gold Dragon (DC 40), Neothelid (DC 37), Phoenix (DC 50)
CR 20: Balor (DC 54), Ancient Gold Dragon (DC 53), Pit Fiend (DC 53)

Size scales CM fast. While it seems reasonable it would be harder to push back or trip an enormous creature, even disarm its much larger weapons, would it really be more difficult to tumble past? The source material suggests not. While itself imperfect, BAB seems a better measure, but the whole CMD rules have streamlined a lot of systems, in a reasonable compromise if not a perfect system.

Not sure Tumble had to be tied in there, though. Especially when DC 15+CR or 10+BAB would probably do the trick just as well. Or just leaving it flat - wizards avoid an AoO by not leaving themselves exposed while casting with a check that does not vary by the opponent's abilities, so why can't mobile characters do the same?
 

Size scales CM fast.

It certainly does. One of the big changes I would have liked to see with PF/3.5E was the removal of size bonuses and penalties entirely, for the most part the Strength/Dexterity bonuses and penalties do the same thing, and the Size bonuses just give problematic numbers.
 

Size scales CM fast. While it seems reasonable it would be harder to push back or trip an enormous creature, even disarm its much larger weapons, would it really be more difficult to tumble past? The source material suggests not. While itself imperfect, BAB seems a better measure, but the whole CMD rules have streamlined a lot of systems, in a reasonable compromise if not a perfect system.

Not sure Tumble had to be tied in there, though. Especially when DC 15+CR or 10+BAB would probably do the trick just as well. Or just leaving it flat - wizards avoid an AoO by not leaving themselves exposed while casting with a check that does not vary by the opponent's abilities, so why can't mobile characters do the same?

I agree that the combat maneuver rules stream line things a lot for PF in general, but I do question the appropriateness of having tumble checks try to beat the CMD (and expressed that during the play test - so I've been arguing that for a while).
 

I actually had this all broken down and responded to each individual point, but I realized upon reading it they all boiled down to the same thing: Your interpretations, for lack of a more suitable word, of rules in this thread are baseless, you've changed standards and refused to actually define your challenge, and you've yet to actually read any of my posts.
In any case, the issue of whether wizards are omnipotent or actually face challenges in most games is hardly germane to the thread, and the last couple of posts make it pretty clear there's negligible value in continuing the discussion.
I agree, the last couple of posts do make such a think clear, especially the ones involving the blatant disregard for rules and refusal to read other's arguments. Have fun, then. If ever do get around to reading my posts, though, I'd really love to continue this.
 

I actually had this all broken down and responded to each individual point, but I realized upon reading it they all boiled down to the same thing: Your interpretations, for lack of a more suitable word, of rules in this thread are baseless, you've changed standards and refused to actually define your challenge, and you've yet to actually read any of my posts.

The challenge I believe I stated above, but I will now state in clear, certain terms:

SHOW ME THE CHARACTER. The full character, stats, spellbook, wealth by level, equipment (including spells he had to pay for and encumbrance), skills, class, level, feats, spell load carried, at a mid level. I keep coming back to 7th level. Show me the Omnipotent Wizard you keep crowing about, unbeatable from L1 to present, built legally, with page and book references for each choice. That's about as clear as I can make it.

While you're at it, I welcome you to cite the rules that you can target spells on an unseen location, and that the character can perfectly understand the layout of an area he cannot see, in combat conditions, from hearing a teammate describe it while engaged in combat.
 
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The challenge I believe I stated above, but I will now state in clear, certain terms:
No, it wasn't, because you were changing what you were asking for in every other post.
SHOW ME THE CHARACTER. The full character, stats, spellbook, wealth by level, equipment (including spells he had to pay for and encumbrance), skills, class, level, feats, spell load carried, at a mid level. I keep coming back to 7th level. Show me the Omnipotent Wizard you keep crowing about, unbeatable from L1 to present, built legally, with page and book references for each choice. That's about as clear as I can make it.
You really want to see an unbeatable wizard at level 7? Fine, Elven Domain Generalist 5/Mindbender 1/Whatever 1. Alacritous Cognition, Versatile Spellcaster, Spell Mastery, Uncanny Forethought, and Mindsight.

WBL: Let's go with a 1500GP jade circlet. Nothing else matters, because it's had 9s since level 1, and therefore has arbitrary WBL. Not what I was originally going for, but this has gotten boring.
While you're at it, I welcome you to cite the rules that you can target spells on an unseen location, and that the character can perfectly understand the layout of an area he cannot see, in combat conditions, from hearing a teammate describe it while engaged in combat.
What part of 20' radius is so confusing? This has grown tiresome.
 

This has grown tiresome.

Well, at least we agree on something...

No, it wasn't, because you were changing what you were asking for in every other post.You really want to see an unbeatable wizard at level 7? Fine, Elven Domain Generalist 5/Mindbender 1/Whatever 1. Alacritous Cognition, Versatile Spellcaster, Spell Mastery, Uncanny Forethought, and Mindsight.

Once again, SHOW ME THE CHARACTER. The full character, stats, spellbook, wealth by level, equipment (including spells he had to pay for and encumbrance), skills, class, level, feats, spell load carried, at a mid level. I keep coming back to 7th level. Show me the Omnipotent Wizard you keep crowing about, unbeatable from L1 to present, built legally, with page and book references for each choice. That's about as clear as I can make it. A skeletal outline is not "a character".

In regards to the above, your skills will be especially interesting since you need to direct 4 skill points per level (16 at L1) to cross class skills. Assuming you start with an 18 INT, that leaves 2 skills you can max out, spellcraft presumably being one. I don't see those huge initiative bonuses you crowed about earlier either.

To the feats, I could one at L1, one at L3, a Wizard bonus at L5 and one at L6. That's four. You list five. BTW, how far from the rest of the group do you huddle, casting spells blindly? Not restricted to this build, but your general theory that the wizard is never targeted because he's some distance away and out of sight.

WBL: Let's go with a 1500GP jade circlet. Nothing else matters, because it's had 9s since level 1, and therefore has arbitrary WBL. Not what I was originally going for, but this has gotten boring.

Maybe you can spell out what "had 9s since L1" is intended to refer to. I rather suspect a very liberal (mis)read of some rules, yet again. Or maybe not - I'm with you, once again, on that last item. Oh, and depending on your strength and how many spellbooks your collection requires, as well as how many spells you wish to obtain beyond your 2 per level, I suggest your possessions may matter more than you assume.

What part of 20' radius is so confusing?

OK, let's make it easier for you. One: I do not believe you can target a spell blindly. If it has targets, you must see or touch them. Even Mindsight is clear that "the creature knows what square each thinking being is in, but it does not see the being". So you are down to areas. As noted previously for spreads, "Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can’t see." This indicates your point of origin must be visible to you. Guess what? That means your spotter is in the spread if it is to reach enemies beyond him.

THERE it is:

Line of Effect

A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin)."

So when you are behind a corner, getting descriptions from other party members (or detecting intelligent targets by mindsight - which includes your teammates, by the way, although knowing type and intelligence should help in most cases), even if I accept you have a 100% perfect understanding of the area and its contents, you still cannot cast a spell around a corner. As is typically the case, the Omnipotent Wizard tends to result from a combination of favourable game style and a loose read, or simply ignoring, some of the rules.

To repeat the point made by another poster on another thread, where I felt a deja vu feeling, you saying it does not make it so.
 

Hi,

My mistake on mobility. We added that when we added our house rule.

While not presented as an opposed check, when tumbling, one usually is maneuvering past an opponent who, presumably, would like to make an attack against you. That seems to fit better as an opposed check (with a variable difficulty depending on the opponent) than a static check.

Thx!

TomB
 

To say:

In our games, we've found the (AC Bonus = Tumble Check - 15) formula works very well.

A problem here is that above a certain level (often quite low), the tumble mechanic simply fails. A mechanic which is an auto success should not pretend to be a skill check. Also, is quite boring. And, allowing the AOO allows more tactical options: The attacker can take a chance against an increased AC (and will hit still on a 20).

We added the house rule because we didn't like the lack of variation in difficulty of tumbling past opponents of different levels. Tumbling past a CR 1 Kobold is the same as tumbling past a CR 20 Balor. Didn't make sense -- to us.

The 1/2 movement is a limitation, but is often easy to overcome. Barbarians and Monks have speed bonuses. Haste grants a 30' bonus. Lots of classes in expansion books grant movement bonuses. Also, the 1/2 move is only while you are tumbling. Once you are out of a threatened square, you resume normal movement.

Tumbling over difficult ground is hard, though. At 1/4 movement rate you don't go very far.

Thx!

TomB
 

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