D&D (2024) Teamwork tier list

[mellored]

True, but the Chain Pact familiar attacks are resourceless,

Thought it cost money when you use it, plus your action when it dies.

I'm just saying, I think "Warlock focusing on serving up Paralyzed targets for the melee PCs to annihilate"

But is that any higher chance than just casting hold person?

Familiars +5 to hit is going to be less than half the time, compared to the monk nearly always working.

 

[mellored]

If you aren't having your illusionist to manipulate the battlefield on behalf of your party -- which a clever illusionist is excellent at, barring a DM who's hostile to illusions -- you're not living up to the potential of the subclass.

Such as?

It's 5' cube max, which isn't enough for cover, and you can't stick it on an enemies head because it ends as soon as they touch it.

Probably the next class I will play. But convince me it works well in combat.

 

[mellored]

If you are doing this you are not using Cunning Action to Disengage or Dash, meaning you have to be within walking distance..

If you can kite, the go ahead and kite.
That's not always an option though.

You are taking at least one AOO to pull it off (from the guy you are binding)

Why would you provoke?

They have disadvantage and rogues have a decent reaction. And if they attack they are still restrained.
And if the grappler goes next, they can move the enemy away.
Or if the wizard cast Hypnotic Pattern and you just restrain while you walk past.

Arcane Trickster can do it from 30 feet away with Mage Hand Legerdemain,

Are you sure?

If that was true then it would be very good and really upstage the Theif.

Finally, any Chain Warlock can have their familiar do it,

Good point.

In actual play IME this is not as beneficial as it seems in a whiteroom.

I still expect most people don’t realize they can do it.

 

[ECMO3]

Thought it cost money when you use it, plus your action when it dies.

The new Quasit is pretty durable since it is often invisible, has 24 hit points and makes its attack off turn as a reaction (meaning it can turn invisible again as an action on its turn). Also you will usually have Investment of the Chain Master if you are doing this, which means you can give the familiar resistance to any damage it does take.

But is that any higher chance than just casting hold person?

Usually yes, for may reasons. First it does not have to be a Humanoid, second you often get two chances to poison it (both on the Quasit's turn and on the start of the bad guys turn) and finally attacks are easier to land then saves.

You do have to deal with enemies immune to poison, which it does not work on.

Familiars +5 to hit is going to be less than half the time, compared to the monk nearly always working.

Not with advantage from being invisible. Also if you have Investment of the Chain Master it can attack twice a round, once on your turn using a reaction and once on its turn using an action (although in that case it is not invisibile for all its attacks)

 

[ECMO3]

If you can kite, the go ahead and kite.
That's not always an option though.

Why would you provoke?

Unless you are going to keep standing next to the guys in melee you will provoke

They have disadvantage and rogues have a decent reaction. And if they attack they are still restrained.

There is no disadvantage on unarmed strike-grapple or shove (the latter probably ends your move and makes you prone right next to him, taking away disadvantage if he attacks you later). Rogues have a good save against that, but a lot of bad guys have a good DC too.

And if the grappler goes next, they can move the enemy away.

If he goes next .... which is making it more situational.

Or if the wizard cast Hypnotic Pattern and you just restrain while you walk past.


Are you sure?

If that was true then it would be very good and really upstage the Theif.

Yes it is very good and it does upstage Thief in this application. You can't do everything you can do with Fast Hands, but you can make a Slight of Hands check, which means you can use manacles or a rope.

Where Fast Hands excels is with a wand or spell scrolls, but it is still not as powerful as Arcane Trickster or Assasin IMO.

I still expect most people don’t realize they can do it.

Most people that play a Thief know they can do this. Fast Hands is the main thing.

 

[mellored]

Lore Bards haven't lost the level 1 ability.

If they use Cuttiing Words, they lost their level 1 ability.

If they use their level 1 ability, they lose Cuttiing Words.

A Lore Bard can do that too. Giving the Barbarian BI and then moving in for Dissonant Whispers is something open to any bard. The bard could use a spell if they have the War Caster feat.

A lore Bard doesn't have the AC to run up front.

But when a Valor Bard gave BI to the fighter and the wizard gets hit the Valor Bard doesn't have an option to use BI to also help that wizard.

And Lore who did not give the BI to the fighter means the fighter might miss his attack and the wizard their concentration save.

It cuts both ways. You don't get both.

If you could use Cuttiing Words proficiency times per day. That would be something.

Preventing an ally from dropping grants them more actions

Better than killing an enemy sooner?

This also includes benefits like not losing concentration on a concentration spell for a spellcaster by either causing a miss or reducing the concentration save DC.

Bonus to the save is twice as good at keeping concentration as reducing the damage.

Plus it will work on stuff like your wizard getting hit with Hypnotic Pattern.

You need to convince me that Cutting Words is better than Bardic Inspiration. Not just equal to it.

How so? I'm not arguing that barbarian and rogues can hit harder than Dance Bards, just curious how you're applying triggering those attacks here

By going first, the barbarian gets extra attacks.

Truestrike needs a weapon and I though Unarmed Strike did not count as a weapon. I would allow it but it doesn't seem RAW to me

Good point.
Still the extra punch are good at low levels, and you get an AC bump.

Inspiring Movement is an awesome ability. You can do that with Mantle of Inspiration too if you're playing on dragging through zones. Mantle of Inspiration grants movement to more allies than Inspiring Movement does.

Glamour is the clear winner, I agree.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Such as?

It's 5' cube max, which isn't enough for cover, and you can't stick it on an enemies head because it ends as soon as they touch it.

Probably the next class I will play. But convince me it works well in combat.

Set the door to the room on fire. Put flaming oil all over the floor. Cover the light sources in an impenetrable cloud of smoke. Make all the arrows vanish from the enemy archer's quiver. And many examples that are specific to the situation.

There are lots of ways to herd people to or from different areas, cause them to delay actions or prevent them from acting at all, etc.

And what specifically is a five foot cube max? Even silent image is a 15 foot cube.

 

[mellored]

Set the door to the room on fire. Put flaming oil all over the floor.

that is not an object.

Cover the light sources in an impenetrable cloud of smoke.

you can do 1 light sorce. If it's stationary.

Make all the arrows vanish from the enemy archer's quiver.

They see though it as soon as they touch the arrows.

So none of those work.

And what specifically is a five foot cube max? Even silent image is a 15 foot cube.

Illusionist subclass doesn't do anything for silent image other than it qualifying as an additional spell in the book.

It's just minor illusion.

And the extra summons are nice, but still take your concentration.

 

[mellored]

Unless you are going to keep standing next to the guys in melee you will provoke.

Attacking the rogue with disadvantage is better than normal attacking the paladin, or wizard.

Even if they trip you and attack as normal. You got your reaction to half the damage. Still a bad turn for them.

And since they attacked, that means they are still restrained and everyone has advantage for another turn.

And then you can cunning action walk away next turn, and they lose a turn untying themselves.

you can make a Slight of Hands check, which means you can use manacles or a rope.

Dunno about that. You still need them to be able to take the "Utilize Action". Which is different than picking someone's pocket.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

If they make resistance and immunity more common in the new MM then sure.
But they where pretty rare, and most of the ones are obvious. Don't hit fire elementals with fire.

Fair point. I've always seen resistances be extremely common, and not always obvious. But I've also rarely (never?) seen DMs use statblocks straight from the Monster Manual without modification, so my perception of RAW could be off