D&D (2024) Teamwork tier list

[mellored]

Nope. If we are part of a team and I create a 5'*5'*2" board of plywood in front of you to conceal you you probably know better than to touch it, especially if I've created a gap at your eye level. There's nothing saying you can't create an object in someone's space or they must touch it especially if they know what you are doing.

Nothing says you can't touch an object in someone else's space either.

Especially a 5*5 object that's right on the border of the spaces.

But i still agree it's the best wizard subclass.

And 20% of facing potential focus fire 1v many seems really bad to me.

Again, likely the rogue will go first and they have tools to escape.

So more like 5% chance.

The "problem" you have here is that you have several of the best second level spells in the game.

True.

I'd rather the Celestial over the GOO for teamwork tbh. Lots of bonus action healing, but more to the point substantial short rest healing. (And they even can get something meaningful out of Guardian of Faith cast before a short rest)

GOO 10 is sooo nice though.

 

[Ashrym]

Just thought I'd cut in there because Glyph is incredibly situational. It's easy to overlook the part of the spell that says:

If the surface or object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken, and the spell ends without being triggered.​

Which means either you are casting it at your base or bastion or you have literally an hour of prep time and are willing to burn 200GP on a single cast of a shortish duration buff.

Note: there is good natured ribbing in some of the rhetorical questions. Try to read it in the intended tone. ;-)

What did you think I meant when I said time and gold? ;-)

Glyphs are situational but it's being used within one of those situations in the given example. Even without the glyph being used for whatever reason that bard has a choice of pass without trace or invisibility, whichever is more applicable at the time and either of which lasts up to an hour.

But if you have the time and money it's definitely an option to add a glyph as a deliberate choice to help.

Bards can do just about anything. What they can't do is everything. You've burned both your Expertise and both your lore masters secrets on this.

Bards have to "burn" (weird language choice) expertise on something. Stealth isn't a bad choice for stealth build. ;-)

It is a choice denied Druids, however. Just like glyph of warding is denied to druids and invisibility is only available through a specific feat; bardic inspiration doesn't exist for the druid to better facilitate the group check.

Stealth and scouting turn into a "don't split the party moment" and bards are better equipped to help the entire party with stealth by using the same spell and adding more options.

Lore bards are going to "burn" (weird language choice) their bonus spells prepped on something. Using them for stealth on a stealth build isn't a poor choice.

Is your argument that a player who makes a stealthy bard isn't doing it right by selecting expertise and spells that facilitate being a stealthy bard? ;-)

Bards can't do everything, no arguments, but they can do stealth.

(And the Expertise only gets you to where a cleric would be normally)

What does a cleric have to do with a comparison between a bard and a druid? Are you backtracking because a trickery cleric also has access to pass without trace, invisibility, and glyph of warding? ;-)

The trickery cleric is similar to the bard but the bard has the possibility of advantage to cover blessing of the trickster but the cleric needs a feat to add expertise, lacks bardic inspiration to hand out to the party, and can't pick up arcane eye.

I think the trickery cleric is better than the druid too.

Not without things like a Spell wrought Tattoo; you've already used both Secrets.

Find familiar is available through a background feat, ritual caster feat, as an alternative to arcane eye, or later with magical secrets. It's easy to get for just about any player who wants it and easier for lore bard's. The opportunity cost is the concern, not the ease of access.

My example used arcane eye instead. Arcane eye is available to wizards and bards. It's not available to druids or clerics.

The difference is that the druid gets wild shape, a familiar, easy access to pass without trace, and a high wisdom for perception in their base kit. Can a bard going flat out be better than a druid that isn't really trying? Probably.

There's a lot to be said for wild shape. That is a strong argument for druids when it comes to stealth. But how does it help the party?

Wild shape is also limited in forms now and comes with a deliberate choice for stealth.

Spells like pass without trace, upcast invisibility, and upcast enhance ability (something else available in both cases but seldom mentioned) can help the party but those aren't exclusive to the druid.

A bard doesn't need to be "going flat out". Choosing skills, expertise, and spells a a basic part of the class as is handing out bardic inspiration. Their only choosing this stealthy style within those choices. That's also a basic part of the kit.

We can point out that druids (or trickery clerics) have a high WIS for perception but bards tend to have a higher DEX and also have expertise. High perception also doesn't help the party sneak.

It's basic for a bard to hand out some inspiration dice to the group and upcast invisibility. It's easier for a lore bard to supplement spell support. The spell glyphs are more "going flat out" because of the time and gold invested, or arcane eye because of the opportunity cost and level of the spell, but they're still easy options.

I might be at least vaguely familiar with the positives and negatives of playing bards. ;-)

 

[ECMO3]

No.

You bind the guy.
Attack him with advantage.
Withdrawal for 1d6.

This is exactly what I said - you need to use your sneak attack on someone within reach of the guy you bind (which includes the guy you bind).

This makes it more situational. I can't sneak attack one guy in one area and then bind a guyb in another area, because you need to withdraw right after the attack. The guy you sneak attack needs to be within reach of the guy you bind.

SITUATIONAL like I said.

That protects the grappler, and boost damage of the rest of the party.

Except the grappler has already grappled him and probably attacked him. You have made a sneak attack on him (instead of on another enemy where it would be more useful).

Oh and the grappler could have just done this with a net on his turn instead of grappling .... which you seem to be completely ignoring!

If you don't have the right party, then yes, it won't work very well.

Once again, I assume everyone is in the same page.

It assumes the other party members are going out of their way for the Thief can "do their thing" and assumes the combat set up enables it.

This is more or less the opposite of a subclass that helps in terms of teamwork ... it is a subclass that needs others to work.
You are making other classes less effective to do what you want to do.

Then you lose an attack. And can miss.

You can't miss with a net. There is no attack roll and you lose an attack to make a grapple as well.

If there is already an incapacitated enemy, why wouldn't you use it?

Well for one positioning.

But if you assume that is not a problem - if you don't want to use steady aim and attack someone else, or move somewhere else or a host of different things.

I am not saying it won't ever use it, I am saying it will be rarely used and IS rarely used in the games I play.

Monks have a lot of unarmed attacks, grapple with Dex, and can run enemies all over the place. Like into zones or off cliffs.

Exactly, but instead of throwing them off the cliff or into the lava they are going to hold him for you to bind him?

They are the best grapplers.

The best Grapplers are Goliaths.

I would not say Monks are better than Fighters and I would say they are worse than Barbarians.

When looking at Monks though, as far as their action goes, throwing a net is always going to be better than a grapple if the intent is to restrian. It inflicts restrained in one attack instead of needing the bonus action and the target must make a dex save and does not get to choose the ability.

Not that Nets are bad.

It is easier to restrain an enemy with a net then it is with a grapple and a bind.

It takes fewer actions
It requires fewer checks/saves to succeed
The save is more difficult to make because the target can't choose the ability
It can be done from range

There will be times it will be good to bind someone, but not often ESPECIALLY when you are considering a team-oriented approach.

There is a lot of whiteroom theory crafting on this thread. I pointed out in my first post that I have not seen this work often in play, you suggested this is because the groups I play with did not know about it (which is absolutely untrue). As I asked earlier - how often have you seen it done in play?

 

[mellored]

Except the grappler has already grappled him and probably attacked him. You have made a sneak attack on him (instead of on another enemy where it would be more useful).

Focus fire is not situational..

It assumes the other party members are going out of their way for the Thief can "do their thing" and assumes the combat set up enables it.

No.

It assumes your teamates are going do something and you are adding to it.

Scenario 1
Wizard cast Clouds of Daggers
Monk grapples and drags the enemy (out of and) into the Clouds of Daggers.
-Something the monk would do anyways.
Thief restrains and stabs.


Scenario 2
Devotion paladin runs forward
Enemies surround him.
Glamor bard cast Hypnotic Pattern
-Something the bard will do anyways.
Thief restrains and stabs.

Keep in mind, melee thief gets Nick, and you have advantage. So 2 chances to land sneak attack.

You can't miss with a net.

Yes you can.. It's a martial ranged weapon.

"creature hit by a net is restrained".

Hmm... would you still add your dex to damage?
They can save.

I am not saying it won't ever use it, I am saying it will be rarely used and IS rarely used in the games I play.

I agree it won't work often with random players.

The best Grapplers are Goliaths.

Goliath Monks.

I would not say Monks are better than Fighters and I would say they are worse than Barbarians.

Monks get more attacks than the fighter, and thus give up less damage per grapple. And they have more mobility to move the target around.

If your not dragging enemies, your not taking full advantage of grappling.

As I asked earlier - how often have you seen it done in play?

Theif? Not yet.
Grapplers and incapacitated? Often. Probably the majority of teams does one or the other.

 

[ECMO3]

Focus fire is not situational..

No disabling the guy you are about to kill is.

No.

It assumes your teamates are going do something and you are adding to it.

So it is situational!

In addition to the party members not just doing it themselves.

Scenario 1
Wizard cast Clouds of Daggers
Monk grapples and drags the enemy (out of and) into the Clouds of Daggers.
-Something the monk would do anyways.
Thief restrains and stabs.



Scenario 2
Devotion paladin runs forward
Enemies surround him.
Glamor bard cast Hypnotic Pattern
-Something the bard will do anyways.
Thief restrains and stabs.

Those are highly situational. Even the party make up for it is situational.

Yes you can.. It's a martial ranged weapon.

No it is not. Read the 2024 rules! A Net is not a weapon and it does not require an attack roll.

"creature hit by a net is restrained".

You are purposefully misleading people by quoting 2014 rules which are no longer valid. This is not the rules, if you think it is tell us where in the 2024 rulebook where you found these words. I have read the rulebook cover to cover and have not seen this at all.

Here is what the 2024 rules say about a Net (under adventuring gear, not under martial weapons):

"When you take the Attack action, you can replace one of your attacks with throwing a Net. Target a creature you can see within 15 feet of yourself. The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw (DC 8 plus your Dexterity modifier and Proficiency Bonus) or have the Restrained condition until it escapes. The target succeeds automatically if it is Huge or larger."

Hmm... would you still add your dex to damage?

It is not a weapon, so why would you?

Theif? Not yet.
Grapplers and incapacitated? Often. Probably the majority of teams does one or the other.

So you started off saying people did not do this with Thief because they did not know about it.

If you are seeing grapples often in 2024 and not seeing Nets used often, I would opine it is because players at your table don't understand how Nets work in the new rules, and from your posts above it is clear you do not know how they work.

 

[mellored]

Even the party make up for it is situational.

The party is planned.

 

[FrogReaver]

Anecdote time.

Our party is level 2, Barbarian, Ranger, Druid, Warlock, with basic starting gear, only the ranger had a bow so far. Tonight we encountered some bandits with crossbows that we were to clear out. Combat started about 300ft away. There was a house, a barn and a temple behind them, with mostly open ground inbetween. I transformed into an Elk, the Barbarian got on and 3 turns and a few athletics checks later (for a quick pickup and for the barbarian to stay on) we had closed the gap and were attacking on turn 3. It would have taken till the 5th turn to close the melee gap otherwise.

Teamwork!