D&D (2024) Teamwork tier list

[Ashrym]

The actual mid-high stakes stealth kings are druids. Find Familiar (cast before breakfast to recover the wild shape). Strong perception. Decent stealth, backed by Pass Without Trace. And the ability to shape shift into an animal.

I think a bard (built for it) is the true stealth master.

A Lore Bard can have Pass Without Trace, Invisibility, Glyph of Warding, and Arcane Eye by 7th level plus Expertise in Stealth and Perception. A Spell Glyph bypasses concentration with a little time and gold to allow Pass Without Trace and Invisibility at the same time.

They can also turn that into a group benefit. Glyph Pass Without Trace (it targets one creature, the spellcaster, and emanates from there}, hand out some BI dice, and upcast Invisibility to the number of party members. Group check with the BI dice.

Plus they can pick up a familiar too if they want.

We can do a lot mixing and matching spells with a Bard. The only issue is what they might be giving up to do it.

 

[ECMO3]

No. Withdraw, at level 5.
You give up 1d6 and move half your speed without provoking.

And now we make this even more situational by requiring you to sneak attack someone within reach of the guy you bind!

Or again, the grappler just moves the target away.

If it is situationally such that he can considering his initiative and yours and other enemies positioning etc.

No.

If the enemy is grappled or incapacitated, you walk up, take a bonus action to retain, then attack with advantage.

There is no such thing as an enemy that is just there grapppled or incapacitated. You or someone else need to take an action to do it and the target almost always needs to fail a save to make it happen.

Unless you stumble on sleeping enemies there is no situation where you can just walk up and bind someone with a bonus action with no failed save and without you or someone else taking an action or an attack.

If you want an opponent restrained, there is also few situations where an ally is just going to grapple him to do that when he could instead throw a net on him to do it.

This isn't hidden information or a die roll. You know at the start of your turn if there is a target or not.

And whoever is going to set this up for you knows at the start of their turn they need to do something to make the enemy grappled or restrained and they need to give up a more effective option to set up the thief.

You started this thread about different subclasses helping party members, and now the situation you are actually describing a party member going out of her way to help the Rogue do his thing.


So yes, the vast majority of time you will be using "steady aim or whatever" .... which is what I more or less said in the original post, this is higly situational and it is very rare you will use it.

So instead of 2 normal attacks.
It's a small chance of 1 normal attack, and a large chance on 1 attack with disadvantage.

Disadvantage against the Rogue which he would have had even if you had not thrown a net on him.

And then monks and rogues can reduce that one attack even further.

Why would a Monk do this? The one character this might be ok for is a martial with a terrible dex and high strength against an enemy with a high dex because that martial will have a low save on a net.

A Monk with a high dex can do this more effectively with a net. Both of them use dexterity an have the same DC but grappling allows the enemy to choose strength (which is usually higher) or Dex, but a net force a dex save.

These rating assumes teamwork, both for the build and durring gameplay.\
Meaning you someone is planning on grappling. Possibly a monk and a druid with spiked growth. Or Devotion paladin who gets Hypnotic Pattern cast on them.

If you're playing with random classes, then yea. It will rarely happen.

It will rarely happen in team games because there is so much set up to make it work and there are usually (almost always) more effective ways to achieve restrained.

 

[mellored]

And now we make this even more situational by requiring you to sneak attack someone within reach of the guy you bind!

No.

You bind the guy.
Attack him with advantage.
Withdrawal for 1d6.

That protects the grappler, and boost damage of the rest of the party.

So yes, the vast majority of time you will be using "steady aim or whatever" .... which is what I more or less said in the original post, this is higly situational and it is very rare you will use it.

If you don't have the right party, then yes, it won't work very well.

Once again, I assume everyone is in the same page.

Disadvantage against the Rogue which he would have had even if you had not thown a net on him.

Then you lose an attack. And can miss.

If there is already an incapacitated enemy, why wouldn't you use it?

Why would a Monk do this?

Monks have a lot of unarmed attacks, grapple with Dex, and can run enemies all over the place. Like into zones or off cliffs.

They are the best grapplers.


Not that Nets are bad.

 

[Ancalagon]

You've scored a lot of temp hp givers well, and I agree with that, but there is a caveat: multiple sources of temp hp often can't stack. So they play well with a party, but not with each other.

 

[FrogReaver]

And assuming half your spells is are abjuration, *2 per level
= 19.

So about 2 hits per day.

yea. I was overestimating how much that blocked.

Agreed.

If there is a creature in that space, the the illusion fails.

As soon as it is touched, by anyone, it fades. And touching doesn't take an action.

But I do agree that it's basically free, and will work more than Abjuration.

Agreed.

80% chance to give your party a turn to prepare sounds pretty good to me.

And you're likely to go first even if your spotted, giving you a chance to escape.

Fairly small chance for a major failure.

I'm not sure i would call them kings. You're dependent on the DM allowing a bat without suspicions.

Where as a goblin might attack it for dinner, then sound the alarm when it disappears.

Though yes, pass without trace on them would make the DC 15, but that cost a spiked growth.

The teamwork value of a single high stealth PC for scouting is highly table dependent. It can also easily suck the teamwork aspect out of the game. I'd suggest stealth is mostly teamwork neutral. *Pass without Trace being a notable exception.

Does make me think I should move the GOO warlock back to S though, assuming pact of the chain, pick up alert/musican as @FrogReaver or @ECMO3 suggested. Maybe even Gaze of Two Minds.

If the question is, how can a warlock who is a GOO subclass either support allies doing what they are trying to do or provide a strong effect that allies can support them in doing, then yes. If the question is what does the GOO subclass bring for those things on it's own, then no. To be honest it's not been completely clear which of those questions you've really been trying to answer.

Maybe i'll move fighters down a notch. I think I am over rating giving advantage to the Champion. Their crits aren't that much more powerful.

From a subclass perspective, only battlemaster really can aid teamates in doing what they are trying to do. Any basic buff helps fighters do what they are tring to do but fighter's aren't doing that exceptionally.

There's a possible use case to saying fighters as a class can use their extra feats to support the team. Inspiring leader or sentinel are interesting picks for that. But ultimately this is back to the question of fighter with subclass supporting team, or what does the subclass itself bring to the table.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I think a bard (built for it) is the true stealth master.

A Lore Bard can have Pass Without Trace, Invisibility, Glyph of Warding,

Just thought I'd cut in there because Glyph is incredibly situational. It's easy to overlook the part of the spell that says:

If the surface or object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken, and the spell ends without being triggered.​

Which means either you are casting it at your base or bastion or you have literally an hour of prep time and are willing to burn 200GP on a single cast of a shortish duration buff.

and Arcane Eye by 7th levelp lus Expertise in Stealth and Perception.

Bards can do just about anything. What they can't do is everything. You've burned both your Expertise and both your lore masters secrets on this. (And the Expertise only gets you to where a cleric would be normally)

Plus they can pick up a familiar too if they want.

Not without things like a Spell wrought Tattoo; you've already used both Secrets.

We can do a lot mixing and matching spells with a Bard. The only issue is what they might be giving up to do it.

The difference is that the druid gets wild shape, a familiar, easy access to pass without trace, and a high wisdom for perception in their base kit. Can a bard going flat out be better than a druid that isn't really trying? Probably.

 

[Neonchameleon]

If there is a creature in that space, the the illusion fails.

As soon as it is touched, by anyone, it fades. And touching doesn't take an action.

Nope. If we are part of a team and I create a 5'*5'*2" board of plywood in front of you to conceal you you probably know better than to touch it, especially if I've created a gap at your eye level. There's nothing saying you can't create an object in someone's space or they must touch it especially if they know what you are doing.

80% chance to give your party a turn to prepare sounds pretty good to me.

And 20% of facing potential focus fire 1v many seems really bad to me.

And you're likely to go first even if your spotted, giving you a chance to escape.

Depends on whether the monsters use individual initiative.

I'm not sure i would call them kings. You're dependent on the DM allowing a bat without suspicions.

Huh? I'm dependent on either there being something for a spider to hide behind or there being some place a cat can go without much suspicion ... because it's a cat.

Where as a goblin might attack it for dinner, then sound the alarm when it disappears.

You aren't stuck with just one option.

Though yes, pass without trace on them would make the DC 15, but that cost a spiked growth.

Three situations here

• You ghost by the whole encounter. In which case definitely worth.
• You think that the surprise round is good - in which case do it
• You don't - so don't

The "problem" you have here is that you have several of the best second level spells in the game.

Does make me think I should move the GOO warlock back to S though, assuming pact of the chain, pick up alert/musican as @FrogReaver or @ECMO3 suggested. Maybe even Gaze of Two Minds.

Pact of the Chain's flying invisible turret is really nice, yes. And might be worth putting warlocks into A tier on their own (or rather with that pact)

I'd rather the Celestial over the GOO for teamwork tbh. Lots of bonus action healing, but more to the point substantial short rest healing. (And they even can get something meaningful out of Guardian of Faith cast before a short rest)

 

[FrogReaver]

Nope. If we are part of a team and I create a 5'*5'*2" board of plywood in front of you to conceal you you probably know better than to touch it, especially if I've created a gap at your eye level. There's nothing saying you can't create an object in someone's space or they must touch it especially if they know what you are doing.

And 20% of facing potential focus fire 1v many seems really bad to me.

Depends on whether the monsters use individual initiative.

Huh? I'm dependent on either there being something for a spider to hide behind or there being some place a cat can go without much suspicion ... because it's a cat.

You aren't stuck with just one option.

Three situations here

• You ghost by the whole encounter. In which case definitely worth.
• You think that the surprise round is good - in which case do it
• You don't - so don't

The "problem" you have here is that you have several of the best second level spells in the game.

Pact of the Chain's flying invisible turret is really nice, yes. And might be worth putting warlocks into A tier on their own (or rather with that pact)

I'd rather the Celestial over the GOO for teamwork tbh. Lots of bonus action healing, but more to the point substantial short rest healing. (And they even can get something meaningful out of Guardian of Faith cast before a short rest)

I’m very suspicious when random cats are found in my house!!!

 

[Neonchameleon]

I’m very suspicious when random cats are found in my house!!!

So am I. But not that the cats are adventurers unless what they are trying to loot is glasses off tables.

 

[mellored]

To be honest it's not been completely clear which of those questions you've really been trying to answer.

Expecting me to have a clear objective seems presumptuous.

Also each class is different. Warlock is very customizable. Monk is very locked in besides it's subclass.

only battlemaster really can aid teamates in doing what they are trying to do. Any basic buff helps fighters do what they are tring to do but fighter's aren't doing that exceptionally.

Agreed. I moved the other ones down.