D&D (2024) Teamwork tier list

[mellored]

Except they have disadvantage on attacks already because they are grappled! You are not causing disadvantage by restraining them, they are already there.

Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on attack rolls against any target other than the grappler.

So you are giving disadvantage to hit the grappler. Which would of been the target.

Plus giving everyone advantage, and helping dex saves too.

potentially YOU if they knocked you prone with their AOO

I still don't know why you think you need to provoke. Unless someone has Sentinel.

If you want to get away, use Withdrawal.

But even without moving, attacking you with disadvantage is better than attacking the grappler with a normal attack.

And the guy grappling them could have done the same by hitting with a topple weapon without giving up anything,

Prone is disadvantage on ranged attacks.
And may fail.
And can be easily removed.
And doesn't give disadvantage on dex saves.

You are acting like this is something unique you are doing.

It's unique that it's a bonus action, automatically works, and takes a action to remove, yes. You can still make your sneak attack with advantage.

If they are incapacitated they aren't attacking anyway.

For that turn.
But once it wears off. They will still be restrained.

 

[ECMO3]

Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on attack rolls against any target other than the grappler.

So you are giving disadvantage to hit the grappler. Which would of been the target.

Yeah something he could have done easier with a net and just as easily by kocking the guy prone in addition to grappling him.

Plus giving everyone advantage, and helping dex saves too.

Again something the guy grappling could have done easier by himself with a net.

If you want to get away, use Withdrawal.

Do you mean disengage? and give up your sneak attack?

But even without moving, attacking you with disadvantage is better than attacking the grappler with a normal attack.

No it is worse, and like I said it probably won't be with disadvantage. Even if you don't provoke., they use their first attack to knock you prone ... and then attack you without disadvantage .... or knock the grapppler prone and attack him without disadvantage.

You are using an attack to cause with a failed save and then a bonus action with a check to do what could be acoomplished easier with just an attack and a failed save.

It's unique that it's a bonus action, automatically works, and takes a action to remove, yes. You can still make your sneak attack with advantage.

First it is not just a bonus action. It is a bonus action PLUS either an action or an attack to set the conditions to attempt it.

You can't do this unless/until the target is grappled or incapacitated and that means you or an ally is going to have to take an action or an attack to do this first.

Second, it does not automatically work. Getting someone grappled or incapacitated is not automatic and will require a failed save. Then you need to make a check which can be automatic but is not going to be automatic for many/most PCs. There is a minority of Thief PCs that it the SOH check will be automatic for, but only after a failed save.

So, you take an attack plus a bonus action and need a failed save, plus possibly a slight of hand check to do this and you have to move right up to the enemy to do it. If someone else is going to do the grapple, instead of the Rogue, then two of you are going to need to move up to the enemy to do it. And no matter how you slice it there is a minimum of one attack plus one bonus action to do it.

Meanwhile you could throw a net on him, do it with a single failed save and no need for another check, do it from further away and do it with only one attack without a need to use bonus action.

I don't believe this is something you have done repeatedly in game. How many times have you or a member of your party bound an opponent with a Rope, Chain or Manacles in play by a Rogue as a bonus action in combat? I've seen it done once in two months and around 30 sessions since the 2024 PHB was published. I have seen a net be used more times than I can count.

 

[mellored]

Do you mean disengage? and give up your sneak attack?

No. Withdraw, at level 5.
You give up 1d6 and move half your speed without provoking.

Or again, the grappler just moves the target away.

So, you take an attack plus a bonus action and need a failed save, plus possibly a slight of hand check to do this and you have to move right up to the enemy to do it.

No.

If the enemy is grappled or incapacitated, you walk up, take a bonus action to retain, then attack with advantage.

If not, then use steady aim or whatever.

This isn't hidden information or a die roll. You know at the start of your turn if there is a target or not.

they use their first attack to knock you prone ... and then attack you without disadvantage .... or knock the grapppler prone and attack him without disadvantage.

Grapples strongest save is going to be Str/Dex. Rogue won't fall down easily either.

So instead of 2 normal attacks.
It's a small chance of 1 normal attack, and a large chance on 1 attack with disadvantage.

And then monks and rogues can reduce that one attack even further.

I've seen it done once in two months and around 30 sessions since the 2024 PHB was published.

These rating assumes teamwork, both for the build and durring gameplay.

Meaning you someone is planning on grappling. Possibly a monk and a druid with spiked growth. Or Devotion paladin who gets Hypnotic Pattern cast on them.

If you're playing with random classes, then yea. It will rarely happen.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'm going to propose that no wizard is below B tier and no artificer below A tier for one very simple reason: Every other class wants to dump intelligence and Investigation and Arcana are top tier skills and history is useful.

In detail:

Artificers: Artillerist: S tier: dat force field projector. Everyone else: A tier

Wizard: Illusionist: A tier. Movable concealment they can spam (bonus action minor illusion of e.g. fog or drapes over someone). Diviner: A tier. Knowing is half the battle, manipulating the dice is also great. Evoker: the ability to ground zero fireball fairly safely may send them into A tier.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I am ranking subclasses on how well classes synergies with a cohesive party.

This is not the Tier list if your playing with random people. Life cleric, for instance, will never be a bad choice, but doesn't really combo with anyone else.

I haven't played most or seen many of them. So subject to change.

Lower levels abilities weighted more heavily than higher ones. And I am ignoring Conjure Minor Elementals.



S: Life of the Party.

Great Old One: warlocks are generally a bit selfish, but Dissonant Whispers can provoke opportunity attacks and their Hex giving disadvantage on saves is top.

Much as I love warlocks this is really overrating the GOOlock. Pact Magic means they level out of Dissonant Whispers in a way bards don't. A, possibly even B tier.

A: Team Player

Beserker: Someone needs to deal the damage and Beserker is one of the best at it. Also immune to friendly Hypnotic Pattern, and allies can push enemies next to you for retaliation.

Don't see the 'serker as notably better than the zealot. Not enough to justify a tier gap

Moon: while I haven't seen the Monster Manual yet, It looks like they will be able to grapple, push and prone just by hitting. All while keeping concentration on spiked growth for your allies to push people into.

Also best anti-invis team players (my moon druid on Saturday was MVP with a mix of faerie fire and Starry Wisp against a dungeon mostly full of invisible monsters)

Abjuration: best wizard at maintaining concentration as the ward reduces damage, both for you and your allies. That lets you keep up Cloud of Daggers, Web and other zones for allies to push into. Also lots of rituals.

I don't see them as better team players than other wizards.

C: Self sufficient.
Valor
Lore
Life
Trickery

I absolutely can not put any strong healers or bards below B tier.

D: Party Poopers.

Shadow: while you could make a full team that can see though magical darkness (Devils Sight and Blind Fighting), this can often prevent spell casters from targeting the enemy your next to.

YMMV. Access to the back line with teleport and stunning fist is great for teamwork and they are exceptional scouts. Depends on the player.

 

[mellored]

Much as I love warlocks this is really overrating the GOOlock. Pact Magic means they level out of Dissonant Whispers in a way bards don't. A, possibly even B tier.

It was more for the disadvantage on saves.
But I should probably discount it a bit more for being level 10.
Moving them down a notch.

Don't see the 'serker as notably better than the zealot. Not enough to justify a tier gap

Retaliation works better with teamwork.

I don't see them as better team players than other wizards.

helping an ally maintain concentration puts them a notch above others IMO.

I absolutely can not put any strong healers or bards below B tier.

then who would you move down in their place?

 

[Neonchameleon]

helping an ally maintain concentration puts them a notch above others IMO.

You mean with the ward? I'd definitely put them below the Illusionist who can use a bonus action to provide someone with concealment every turn.

then who would you move down in their place?

The collected sneaks (rangers and rogues). Ghosting splits the party or is solipsistic, Dex 14 is ultra-common, and ranged damage is low while enabling the enemy to more easily focus fire the front line while they don't have the battlefield presence of e.g. a wizard.

 

[mellored]

You mean with the ward?

Reduce the damage, reduce the concentration DC. Possibly avoiding one all together.

Granted, I haven't played one yet, nor done the math. So I'm not sure how long the ward holds for.

I'd definitely put them below the Illusionist who can use a bonus action to provide someone with concealment every turn.

Hmm... would that work?

"If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the illusion becomes faint to the creature."

"Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, since things can pass through it."

I read that as if anyone or anything who touches the effect ends it. So you give disadvantage to one arrow, or any melee can effectively walk though it.

Definitely up for being convinced otherwise.

The collected sneaks (rangers and rogues). Ghosting splits the party

Knowing where an enemy is before battle lets you precast Haste, Summons, etc..., it's like granting extra action.

Arcane Eye also does this well, but that's a bit higher slot to use.

or is solipsistic,

It might be a big assumption for some rogue players, but this thread assumes teamwork.

Dex 14 is ultra-common,

It's a DC 15 now. +5 to stealth checks is going to leave the party split half the time.

Expetise makes scouting, not walking ahead of the party, much more likely. Reliable talent/pass without trace makes it all the time, unless they have true sight or something.

Monks and rogues can also run back to the party fairly easily if they do get caught.

and ranged damage is low while enabling the enemy to more easily focus fire the front line while they don't have the battlefield presence of e.g. a wizard.

Rogue will happily focus fire and have nasty opportunity attacks.

I'll move Gloom Stalker down a notch and Illusionist up.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Reduce the damage, reduce the concentration DC. Possibly avoiding one all together.

Granted, I haven't played one yet, nor done the math. So I'm not sure how long the ward holds for.

Not long I think. A level 6 ward should be able to take 16hp (2x wizard level + Int (+4)) before popping, which is roughly a single hit. A 2014 CR2 ogre does 13 damage on average on a hit.

Hmm... would that work?

"If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the illusion becomes faint to the creature."

"Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, since things can pass through it."

I read that as if anyone or anything who touches the effect ends it. So you give disadvantage to one arrow, or any melee can effectively walk though it.

Per turn at no significant cost, wizards not having a lot of uses for bonus actions. And no, melee can't walk through it because there's also a creature in that space.

Knowing where an enemy is before battle lets you precast Haste, Summons, etc..., it's like granting extra action.

That's more a perception than a stealth thing IME. And familiars do it (at +5/+5) than adventurers.

It's a DC 15 now. +5 to stealth checks is going to leave the party split half the time.

A level 6 rogue with Stealth Expertise and Dex 18 fails DC 15 20% of the time, and that's about the limit case. And a caught scout is frequently in a world of hurt. Before Reliable Talent it's unreliable.

The actual mid-high stakes stealth kings are druids. Find Familiar (cast before breakfast to recover the wild shape). Strong perception. Decent stealth, backed by Pass Without Trace. And the ability to shape shift into an animal.

Rogue will happily focus fire and have nasty opportunity attacks.

But not great basic DPR and you don't get OAs if not in melee.

 

[mellored]

Not long I think. A level 6 ward should be able to take 16hp (2x wizard level + Int (+4)) before popping, which is roughly a single hit. A 2014 CR2 ogre does 13 damage on average on a hit.

And assuming half your spells is are abjuration, *2 per level
= 19.

So about 2 hits per day.

yea. I was overestimating how much that blocked.

Per turn at no significant cost, wizards not having a lot of uses for bonus actions. And no, melee can't walk through it because there's also a creature in that space.

If there is a creature in that space, the the illusion fails.

As soon as it is touched, by anyone, it fades. And touching doesn't take an action.

But I do agree that it's basically free, and will work more than Abjuration.

A level 6 rogue with Stealth Expertise and Dex 18 fails DC 15 20% of the time, and that's about the limit case. And a caught scout is frequently in a world of hurt.

80% chance to give your party a turn to prepare sounds pretty good to me.

And you're likely to go first even if your spotted, giving you a chance to escape.

Fairly small chance for a major failure.

The actual mid-high stakes stealth kings are druids

I'm not sure i would call them kings. You're dependent on the DM allowing a bat without suspicions.

Where as a goblin might attack it for dinner, then sound the alarm when it disappears.

Though yes, pass without trace on them would make the DC 15, but that cost a spiked growth.


Does make me think I should move the GOO warlock back to S though, assuming pact of the chain, pick up alert/musican as @FrogReaver or @ECMO3 suggested. Maybe even Gaze of Two Minds.


Maybe i'll move fighters down a notch. I think I am over rating giving advantage to the Champion. Their crits aren't that much more powerful.