D&D (2024) Teamwork tier list

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

that is not an object.

you can do 1 light sorce. If it's stationary.

They see though it as soon as they touch the arrows.

So none of those work.

Illusionist subclass doesn't do anything for silent image other than it qualifying as an additional spell in the book.

It's just minor illusion.

And the extra summons are nice, but still take your concentration.

I wasn't clear that "play an illusionist" meant "only use minor illusion." I wouldn't play an illusionist that way -- and have played one since 2006 -- but if that's how you intend to play your upcoming illusionist, I'm going to say you'll find it frustrating. I certainly would.

That said, illusionists can cast silent image without a verbal component and at a range of 120'. Both of those make illusionists dramatically more potent.

 

[mellored]

I wasn't clear that "play an illusionist" meant "only use minor illusion." I wouldn't play an illusionist that way

Sure.. but you can be an Abjurer, cast silent image, and maintain your concentration on it better, plus your allies concentration.

Or you can be an Illusionist and cast fireball.

There are not school restrictions.

That said, illusionists can cast silent image without a verbal component and at a range of 120'. Both of those make illusionists dramatically more potent.

I missed that.

Still seems more of an out of combat thing than in combat.


Hmm... an all Silence party...
Aberrant Sorcerer
Illusionist
GOO Warlock
Soulknife

No one heard anything. No scars are seen. Even great wizards end up dead seemingly without getting a spell off...

Any other way to cast spells without verbal components?


A darkness and silence party?

 

[kigmatzomat]

Such as?

It's 5' cube max, which isn't enough for cover, and you can't stick it on an enemies head because it ends as soon as they touch it.

Probably the next class I will play. But convince me it works well in combat.

5Ft of Illusion is plenty for gnomes, dwarves, halflings, shorter humans & elves or anyone willing to crouch. Have it be a cloud of black smoke and touch doesn't immediately disprove it.

Silent Image does an excellent job emulating the Fog Cloud spell while letting you see right through it, and allies who know it's an illusion should readily see through it, especially if you cast it outside a room where they can resist it before moving it in as cover.

A 6th level Major Image, made permanent, can do great things at emulating an Eversmoking Bottle or the "ghost" aspect of Summon Undead. The "ghost" can even manifest an aura of (non-damaging) cold and a moving zone of frost as it phases through walls and swords.

 

[ECMO3]

Attacking the rogue with disadvantage is better than normal attacking the paladin, or wizard.

Not generally it isn't. Those characters typically have a much better AC and if they are in melee effectively more hit points too.

Even if they trip you and attack as normal. You got your reaction to half the damage.

On the 1st attack, not on the second or the third and if they were grappled already they would have disadvantage on you if you did nothing to them. By giving them an AOO on you, you gave them the opportunity to cancel that disadvantage (even if you are successful binding them).

Also the grappler could also knock them prone, making them both prone and grappled and getting all the advantages you are giving here.

And since they attacked, that means they are still restrained and everyone has advantage for another turn.

Sure. But the grappler could just as easily knock them prone, making them both prone and grappled, or use a single attack to throw a net on them instead of grappling them

Also with the new weapon masteries you do this without even losing an attack. Someone who is going to build a grappler is also generally going to use topple with it, and other martial PCs can topple a grappled enemy as well.

I am not saying it is never useful, but the idea that you are going to have someone grappling an enemy, that is large or smaller and they have legs, and your ally will just be holding them for you to come up and put a rope on them, and have that happen when you are within walking distance, and you can get to them without taking too many AOOs, and it is not better tactically to use a different bonus action ....

That is just not going to happen very often in most parties.

Now making a sneak attack and then using a Wand of Magic Missiles as a bonus action .... that is going to happen all the time.

And then you can cunning action walk away next turn, and they lose a turn untying themselves.

If you are not grappled ..... or prone ..... or prone and grappled.

Dunno about that. You still need them to be able to take the "Utilize Action". Which is different than picking someone's pocket.

I read it that you can. It is normally the utilize action to use thieves tools as well or pretty much anything you are going to do with slight of hand.

 

[Ashrym]

If they use Cuttiing Words, they lost their level 1 ability.

No, I don't agree. The player has the option to use whichever seems best at the time. More options to use a resource is positive.

Please note that my argument is to place Lore Bards in the same tier in this aspect as Valor Bards or slightly above. I'm not arguing that Lore Bards provide the same teamwork benefits as Glamour or Dance Bards. ;-)

A lore Bard doesn't have the AC to run up front.

They don't need the AC in that context because the target is running away.

And Lore who did not give the BI to the fighter means the fighter might miss his attack

Which is true for every bard subclass that didn't give that fighter BI. Every time the Dance Bard uses BI for Tandem Footwork or Inspiring Movement that's also at the cost of giving the fighter BI. Every time the Glamour Bard uses BI for Mantle of Inspiration or to recharge Beguiling Magic that's also at the cost of giving the fighter BI.

It's just opportunity cost. That happens. It doesn't mean Cutting Words isn't a useful alternative when a deliberate judgment call is made to use it or that Dance Bards or Glamour Bards or Lore Bards don't also still make judgement calls to use standard BI.

and the wizard their concentration save.

Only if BI was given to the wizard in the first place, but the Lore Bard still helps the wizard make that concentration save by either deflecting the attack and avoiding the need to make the save or by lowering the damage and thereby reducing the required DC of the save.

It cuts both ways. You don't get both.

It doesn't cut both ways because the Valor Bard is denied that choice in the first place. The Valor Bard can give BI to the fighter and the wizard in the example, and the wizard can still add AC to avoid an attack; but the wizard cannot reduce damage and adding the damage rarely leads to an earlier kill while Cutting Words can still lower the save DC needed to maintain concentration by lowering the damage.

If you could use Cuttiing Words proficiency times per day. That would be something.

Not if the end result was using Cutting Words less times per day. Right now Lore Bards can use Cutting Words 0-3 times per day at 3rd level, 0-4 times per day at 4th level (typically), and 0 to innumerable times per day at 5th level because wilderness and town adventures can provide a lot of short rest opportunities.

Restricting Cutting Words to 2 or 3 times per day until 9th level and then 4 times per day makes it less useful, IMO, because the opportunity to use it has dropped massively.

Better than killing an enemy sooner?

Far better than not killing an opponent at all because the PC dropped. Saving an ally from dropping can generate many attacks to kill an enemy sooner.

Bonus to the save is twice as good at keeping concentration as reducing the damage.

Except BI has to have been given to that PC or other creature in advance. Bards don't have the BI uses to give out to everyone.

With Cutting Words they can get around that restriction by being able to grant it as needed using a reaction.

Take a typical 5 person party at 6th level when most of these features are available.

The Dance Bard has 3 or 4 uses per short rest depending on ability score focus. 2 of those are going to Tandem Footwork for initiative, which we agree is useful, leaving only 1 or 2 for everything else, including standard BI and Inspiring Movement. Using them on Inspiring Movement also prevents using them on BI. How many members of the 5 person party is he realistically granting BI? It's about 0 to 1 or so. Even when CHA is eventually 20 having 5 uses with 2 going to Tandem Footwork leaves 3 to split between Inspiring Movement and standard BI. That's a subclass that isn't handing out a lot of BI dice because of the competition and leaving several party members in a position to not change a failed roll.

The Glamour Bard has no significant reason to bump DEX over CHA and probably has 4 uses per short rest. Glamour gets a free use of Beguiling Magic and might use BI to recharge it once or twice, and use Mantle of Inspiration once or twice. The Glamour Bard has a bit more leeway in where the BI dice get spent, IMO, than the Dance Bard (who will use it on Tandem Footwork) but again even one use on Beguiling Magic and one use on Mantle of Inspiration leaves 3 party members not covered and 2 party members at 20 CHA. Each additional use means less BI to go around the party.

The Valor Bard just hands out BI dice. This covers more party members than the Dance Bard or the Glamour bard even if the Valor Bard doesn't prioritize CHA first.

This comes to the part I want you to understand where I'm coming from here. The Lore Bard has no reason not to prioritize CHA. They can cover the same number of party members as the Dance or Glamour Bards who are also using their other abilities and also have Cutting Words left over to help any other member of the party if needed with the same uses that Dance or Glamour Bards are using on those other uses. In doing so the Lore Bard is in effect covering more of the party through that reaction mechanic. They are giving the same BI out to the same party members and using Cutting Words to help party members who didn't get BI if needed.

Plus it will work on stuff like your wizard getting hit with Hypnotic Pattern.

So give the Wizard BI if you think they'll need it and also keep some Cutting Words for other uses.

You need to convince me that Cutting Words is better than Bardic Inspiration. Not just equal to it.

That just depends on the circumstances but given that Dance and Glamour Bards don't have a large number of BI dice to hand out and use their other abilities hopefully the explanation that Lore Bards can use Cutting Words to help someone who didn't get BI; or they can use Cutting Words to also help someone who did gain BI and double down if needed.

It could also be as simple as causing an opponent caught in the Druid's Entangle spell to fail the Athletics check to break out, keeping that opponent restrained and the party safe. Standard BI cannot do something like that at all.

By going first, the barbarian gets extra attacks.

By going first, the barbarian makes the same number of attacks as he does going second. This only matter if either the Barbarian or the opponent is capable of dropping each other in a turn. Otherwise it doesn't come into play until after one side wears the other down.

There's also no guarantee that any PC goes first in initiative. The bonus brings up the average number of times they might win initiative.

Good point.
Still the extra punch are good at low levels, and you get an AC bump.

At low levels the extra punch might be 3 in an entire adventuring day and the AC bump is good, but those still don't benefit teamwork interaction. That doesn't happen until 6th level, and my advice wasn't to bump Dance Bards down or elevate Lore Bards up to the same level. My advice is to bump Lore Bards to the same as or slightly above Valor Bards in your list.

Glamour is the clear winner, I agree.

Between Mantle of Inspiration and Mantle of Majesty Glamour Bards do offer a lot of interaction on top of regular Bard spells and features. But I also didn't advice you to drop Glamour Bards down or elevate Lore Bards up to Glamour Bards. My advice was to bump Lore Bards to the same or slightly above Valor Bards. ;-)

 

[Ashrym]

Any other way to cast spells without verbal components?

Spells that have no verbal component...

• Counterspell
• Friends
• Hypnotic Pattern
• Ice Knife
• Mindspike
• Minor Illusion
• Steel Wind Strike
• Thunderclap
• Truestrike

There are more but these might be more useful to the concept.

 

[mellored]

Not generally it isn't. Those characters typically have a much better AC and if they are in melee effectively more hit points too.

+5 to hit a 16 AC with disadvantage
= 25%.

+5 to hit an 19 AC
= 35%.

Disadvantage more than makes up the difference.

Maybe if the grappler was an Armorer Artificer who stacks their AC. But for most it's a boon.

On the 1st attack, not on the second or the third and if they were grappled already they would have disadvantage on you if you did nothing to them

You gave the party (including yourself) advantage to hit them, disadvantage to the hit the grappler, and disadvantage on dex saves.

For multiple turns.

even if you are successful binding them

You can't fail the bind past level 7.

Also the grappler could also knock them prone, making them both prone and grappled and getting all the advantages you are giving here.

Prone requires a save. And doesn't help ranged allies. And only last half a round.

Sure. But the grappler could just as easily knock them prone, making them both prone and grappled, or use a single attack to throw a net on them instead of grappling them

If they hit.
Compared to a guaranteed restrained for a bonus action.

I am not saying it is never useful, but the idea that you are going to have someone grappling an enemy

Doesn't need to be grappled.

Hypnotic Pattern or Tasha's Hideous Laughter also works. With no OAs to worry about.

, that is large or smaller and they have legs,

Rope doesn't have a size restriction.

I read it that you can. It is normally the utilize action to use thieves tools as well or pretty much anything you are going to do with slight of hand.

"You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of the Attack action. When an object requires an action for its use, you take the Utilize action."

"Sleight of Hand Dexterity Pick a pocket, conceal a handheld object, or perform legerdemain"

The way I read it, Picking up an object out of someone's pocket is different than utilizing it.

 

[mellored]

Please note that my argument is to place Lore Bards in the same tier in this aspect as Valor Bards or slightly above

sure. just for you.
I put them right below Valor.

But really, they are still bards. And Magical Secrets does open up a few combos.

They don't need the AC in that context because the target is running away.

They can make their save and then attack you.
And Lore will need to spend a die to match Valor AC.

Spend a die to get 1d8 to one attack, or +4 vs all attacks for no dice.

Which is true for every bard subclass that didn't give that fighter BI. Every time the Dance Bard uses BI for Tandem Footwork or Inspiring Movement that's also at the cost of giving the fighter BI.

Yea. The fighter loses one attack, but gains a full turn. That's better.

Cutting Words the fighter loses hit in exchange for being missed once. That's not better, just different.


I am going to house rule Lore gets a few uses for free.

 

[Ashrym]

sure. just for you.
I put them right below Valor.

But really, they are still bards. And Magical Secrets does open up a few combos.

Magical Secrets requires replacing other lower level bard spells for those combos and higher level spells prepared don't come at a fast rate.

Magical Discoveries can give support spells or other spells like Spirit Guardians that you were using in your grappling examples for those grappling and moving characters.

Magical Discoveries adds 2 spells at 6th level. Magical Secrets adds 1 at 10th level, 1 at 11th level, 1 at 13th level, 15th level, and one each at 17th thru 20th levels that the Lore Bard also gets. We don't really see that lesser impact from Magical Discoveries until at least 15th level but it always has some impact.

Additional support spell options is definitely a plus for Lore Bards.

They can make their save and then attack you.
And Lore will need to spend a die to match Valor AC.

They might make their save in which case they would have made their save regardless of which bard subclass tries this and then they might attack the bard and that opponent might hit the bard, and then the Lore Bard might choose to use Cutting Secrets as an option to deflect the attack to match the Dance or Valor AC benefits, or might heal it later instead.

There's too much "might" in your scenario in what's a risk vs reward choice the player makes. It's not unreasonable or unrealistic for a Lore Bard to move in and also attempt the opportunity attack from Dissonant Whispers, especially if that same Lore Bard picked up Warcaster and can apply a spell as the opportunity attack instead of a weapon attack.

Yea. The fighter loses one attack, but gains a full turn. That's better.

The fighter that gets saved from dropping can gain multiple full turns. That's BETTERER.

Cutting Words the fighter loses hit in exchange for being missed once. That's not better, just different.

Being missed once can be the difference between attacking 3 times or attacking 0 times or multiple turns. The idea is the Lore Bard is using Cutting Words when it does make that difference.

The entire party being missed 3 times because the Cutting Words prevented the opponent from escaping a zone that's Restraining it or some similar effect that relies on an ability check isn't just missing once. It's literally interacting with other party members in teamwork for a better effect.

Cutting Words has some obvious advantages in the ability to hamper opponents directly that Dance and Valor Bards do not. At least Glamour Bards can fuels additional charm effects with those BI uses.

I am going to house rule Lore gets a few uses for free.

Sure, if you want. But your house rules aren't really relevant to the evaluation. This was a comparison of subclasses and how those subclass features contribute to teamwork.

My argument is Lore Bards should be above Valor Bards in this regard. Your argument seems to be some weird axe to grind against Lore Bards.

Valor Bards as a class add Combat Inspiration which can be used as an AC bonus or damage bonus. That's it. Their other benefits are useful but not in a teamwork sense.

Lore Bards can...

• add a (very minor) benefit to group checks through bonus skill proficiencies
• use Cutting Words to directly hamper opponents in attack rolls, ability checks, or damage, which are more options than Combat Inspiration and not available to Valor Bards
• gain bonus spells prepared that can add room for additional support spells or grab additional support spells from other lists

My advice would still be to rank Lore Bards above Valor Bards as a teamwork subclass option. They clearly add more BI options and opportunities, and the extra spells prepared are clearly beneficial.

 

[ECMO3]

+5 to hit a 16 AC with disadvantage
= 25%.

+5 to hit an 19 AC
= 35%.

Except they have disadvantage on attacks already because they are grappled! You are not causing disadvantage by restraining them, they are already there.

+5 to hit 16AC with disadvantge = 25%

+5 to hit AC19 with disadvantage = 12%

+5 to hit AC21 wirth disadvantge (you used Wizards in your example and most Wizards will be here or better) = 9%

Disadvantage more than makes up the difference.

What difference. Being grappled causes disadvantage, and being knocked prone with an AOO by the grappled person cancels it ON YOU.

The only person they don't have disadvantage on are the one they are being grappled by and potentially YOU if they knocked you prone with their AOO

You gave the party (including yourself) advantage to hit them, disadvantage to the hit the grappler, and disadvantage on dex saves.

And the guy grappling them could have done the same by hitting with a topple weapon without giving up anything, or anyone in the party could do it with one attack or by throwing a net on them and doing it using less action economy and taking less risks then you are.

You are acting like this is something unique you are doing.

You can't fail the bind past level 7.

You can't get into position to do it most of the time either. A net or Topple might be easier to defeat, but it is also A LOT easier to do .... and those work on enemies without legs.

Prone requires a save. And doesn't help ranged allies. And only last half a round.

If you are grappled (which we are saying he is for you to do your thing) it lasts until the grapple is broken and then requires half of your movement on top of that.

If they hit.
Compared to a guaranteed restrained for a bonus action.

It is only guaranteed if they failed a previous save to be grappled or incapacitated and they within walking distance and you are level 7+, took expertise in slight of hand (which is high price to pay), the creature has legs and you don't have something else to use a bonus action on. When you get down to it, the only thing guaranteed is that it will not be used very often.

You do not need to hit with a net in 2024 rules. Throwing a net causes a save against being restrained. It is actually a harder save than Grappling, because a net uses a Dex save where Grappling gives the target a choice of Strength or Dex. Shoving Prone also is a save. Either of these can be done with a single attack, which is pretty comparable to a Rogue's bonus action in terms of action economy. This makes a net cheaper than binding someone since you don't have to grapple or incapacitate them first. It makes knocking them prone about the same cost if you use shove, or again cheaper if you use a topple weapon.

Also while the check may be automatic with a particular build, landing grapple or incapacitated to set it up is not automatic. The enemy will almost always need to fail a save to be grappled or incapacitated for you to even have a shot at using the rope. So my Monk PC can give up an attack to try to grapple an enemy ... then if the enemy fails his save you can come in and make him restrained with a successful SOH check .... or I could just make him restrained in one shot with that same attack by throwing the net in the first place and failing that exact same or more difficult saving throw!

How many games have you played in that had a Thief that did this in multiple battles?

In a 1-20 campaign you probably pull this off two or three turns.

Doesn't need to be grappled.

Hypnotic Pattern or Tasha's Hideous Laughter also works. With no OAs to worry about.

If they fail a saving throw first ... and then if you make your check.

Also let's get back to your original claim - that you are imposing disadvantage on the Grappler. If they are incapacitated they aren't attacking anyway.

Rope doesn't have a size restriction.

Grapple does, and a rope has a restriction on the opponent having legs. Your original example pointed to using this on enemies allies had grappled.