D&D (2024) Teamwork tier list

[mellored]

No I realize what to do, it is just situational, and requires a bonus action, usually requires movement to get in position and a relatively easy skill check.

Automatic success at level 7.

You have really good abilities like Cunning Action and Steady Aim at that level (plus others like drinking a potion or applying poison).

Steady Aim only gives you advantage.

Restrained gives
-A restrained creature’s speed becomes 0, and it can’t benefit from any bonus to its speed.
-Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have disadvantage.
-The creature has disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws.

No size restriction on rope, and only cost 1gp.

 

[Kurotowa]

I think you're underrating Wild Heart Barbarian. Now that they can pick their animal buff every time they Rage, they can easily flip between Bear for durability and Wolf for free Advantage against anything they're in melee with for their entire party. That's a pretty big party benefit.

I don't know why you're assigning Mercy Monk the high score for Summon Putrid Undead shenanigans, when they're not even the ones casting the spell. A Warlock can cast Summon Undead while taking Chain Pact for a Quasit or Pseudodragon familiar to get extra Poisoned application chances. If anything, they're the ones who deserve the marks.

 

[Ashrym]

Cutting Words affects 1 attack per die.

Which is something I specifically pointed out and why I said to bump Lore up one spot. My advice still leaves Tandem above Cutting Words.

We should still keep in mind that Cutting Words (and Combat Inspiration) becomes available to help other party members at 3rd level, and you're comparing it to 6th level abilities. Dance Bards don't really add anything for the party at that level. Glamour Bards do but you seemed to have left Mantle of Inspiration out of the discussion.

Lore Bards also gain those extra skill proficiencies that can help with a group check at 3rd level, which I mentioned earlier, even if it's a small benefit that doesn't see much use in that way.

Tandem doesn't come until 6th level when Magical Discoveries happens, and Magical Discoveries can definitely help the party. I often take Prayer of Healing as a support spell, and that adds healing plus grants a short rest benefit. I'm positive the Fighters and Monks and Warlocks like that, and recovering my own BI dice to hand more out at the same time. Not every player is going to add more support spells but the option to do so is definitely better than not having the option for other subclasses.

Those extra spells prepared aren't just only useful for a few levels. It's always going to be two more prepared spells than any other bard, and levels 6 through 10 are a quarter of the total levels in the game as well as the majority of most campaigns.

I don't think it makes any sense to rank Valor Bards whose only ability added to help the party is Combat Inspiration. Cutting Words effectively does the same thing with regards to deflecting an attack, but Cutting Words is more party oriented in preventing damage than Combat Inspiration is in adding damage. There's literally no reason to rank Valor Bards above Lore Bards regarding party interaction mechanics.

Tandem can end up with dead enemies a round early, affecting 4+ attacks. Big difference.

Except Tandem has no control over which attacks against whom. The ability to choose against which attack it's applied carries some weight over the possibility of some random attacks at the end of the combat. That's also a consideration here.

And the rest of the Dance dice are 2 attacks. Your allies and your unarmed one.

You kind of missed the point where you aren't applying your own argument (uses of Cutting Words costing those other BI uses). Tandem Footwork still costs that use that won't trigger Agile Strikes.

For Agile Strikes to even work the Dance Bard needs someone to attack. Are you waiting for combat to start before handing out those BI dice one at a time, or are you loading up the party before the fight so BI is already available because it lasts an hour? Because waiting to hand out BI dice for a limited number of attacks strikes me as the opposite of teamwork, and not waiting makes those attacks moot.

GOO hex does at level 10.

Otherwise I would agree that Warlocks are mostly self sufficient.

Oohhh, I missed that. That is shiny. :-D

 

[mellored]

I think you're underrating Wild Heart Barbarian.

Possibly. I'm on the fence about bumping them.

I'm kind of surprised how well barbarians do overall.

I don't know why you're assigning Mercy Monk the high score for Summon Putrid Undead shenanigans, when they're not even the ones casting the spell.

Team work.

A Warlock can cast Summon Undead while taking Chain Pact for a Quasit or Pseudodragon.

Which will be far less reliable than the monk. One attack, less accuracy, can more easily die.

Plus monks can grapple (automatically against paralyzed enemies), move allies, stun, knock prone, and possibly scout. Posion isn't their only thing. Healing doesn't hurt either.

Of course, you can have both.

 

[mellored]

We should still keep in mind that Cutting Words (and Combat Inspiration) becomes available to help other party members at 3rd level, and you're comparing it to 6th level abilities.

I'm comparing cutting words to the level 1 ability.

It's not better than Bardic Inspiration.

Dance Bards don't really add anything for the party at that level.

A little extra damage, defense, and slightly better opportunity attacks.

Nothing major. But you can give the barbarian bardic inspiration, walk up the enemy they are facing, cast Dissonant Whispers, and add your punch to the Barbarian's attack.

Valor can too. But they don't get Tandem Footwork.

Glamour Bards do but you seemed to have left Mantle of Inspiration out of the discussion.

True. I should mention that.

Lore Bards also gain those extra skill proficiencies that can help with a group check at 3rd level,

I thought group checks where removed?

I don't think it makes any sense to rank Valor Bards whose only ability added to help the party is Combat Inspiration.

Valor can give out the same number of BI, and cast the same number of hypnotic patterns as Lore.

Plus better opportunity attacks, damage, and armor.

Cutting Words effectively does the same thing with regards to deflecting an attack,

By taking away from allies landing attacks and making saves.

If you could use it Proficiency bonus times per day, then it would be something.

Except Tandem has no control over which attacks against whom. The ability to choose against which attack it's applied carries some weight over the possibility of some random attacks at the end of the combat. That's also a consideration here.

You don't get to choose the attack for Cutting Words. You randomly get one that it might work on.
Possibly 2 attacks in a row hit barely hit, and you only have 1 reactions.
Then the next turns the DM rolls 5 and 17 and you can't use it.

But sure. Tandem can be wasted.

Tandem Footwork still costs that use that won't trigger Agile Strikes.

But it can trigger barbarian and rogue strikes. Which is even better.

For Agile Strikes to even work the Dance Bard needs someone to attack.

Even if we assume they never use it.

They can punch with Truestrike for decent cantrip damage. And they get scaling AC.

Are you waiting for combat to start before handing out those BI dice one at a time, or are you loading up the party before the fight so BI is already available because it lasts an hour?

Do you give out dice before combat so allies so they can use them. Because then Lore would have none for Cutting Words.

But I expect i would mostly hand them out as needed. Probably to whoever has the biggest single attack.


Oh! I also just realized. Inspired Movement can let a grappler drag a creature into a zone on the enemies turn. Then they do it again on their turn. Triple dipping a zone damage. Plus a punch.

Heck, under perfect circumstances, you grapple 2, your ally grapples 2, and you could drag 4 enemies into a zone as a reaction.

 

[Kurotowa]

Which will be far less reliable than the monk. One attack, less accuracy, can more easily die.

True, but the Chain Pact familiar attacks are resourceless, while a Monk doesn't have a bottomless reserve of Focus Points for Hand of Harm. Also the Quasit is immune to the Poisoned condition, which means it can ignore the Putrid Spirit's Festering Aura.

I'm just saying, I think "Warlock focusing on serving up Paralyzed targets for the melee PCs to annihilate" should be ranked higher than "Monk who can spend resources on the Poisoned condition as a setup for a caster with Summon Undead."

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

If you aren't having your illusionist to manipulate the battlefield on behalf of your party -- which a clever illusionist is excellent at, barring a DM who's hostile to illusions -- you're not living up to the potential of the subclass.

 

[Ashrym]

I'm comparing cutting words to the level 1 ability.

Lore Bards haven't lost the level 1 ability. They can use that same BI die in the same way and also use it against attacks, ability checks, or damage. More options for the same ability is not worse than just the ability itself.

I'm going to bring up Valor Bards again. There's no reason to rate them higher than a Lore Bard when they gain less team oriented abilities.

It's not better than Bardic Inspiration.

I disagree. The option to use Cutting Words or Bardic Inspiration > only the ability to use Bardic Inspiration.

A little extra damage, defense, and slightly better opportunity attacks.

None of those are team oriented benefits.

Nothing major. But you can give the barbarian bardic inspiration, walk up the enemy they are facing, cast Dissonant Whispers, and add your punch to the Barbarian's attack.

A Lore Bard can do that too. Giving the Barbarian BI and then moving in for Dissonant Whispers is something open to any bard. The bard could use a spell if they have the War Caster feat.

True. I should mention that.

I agree. I think granting off-turn movement is good even without the temp hp.

I thought group checks where removed?

No, they're still in the 2024 DMG. Any bard can make a group check easy by handing out some BI dice. The Lore Bard's extra skill proficiencies is pretty minor, but it does exist.

Valor can give out the same number of BI, and cast the same number of hypnotic patterns as Lore.

But when a Valor Bard gave BI to the fighter and the wizard gets hit the Valor Bard doesn't have an option to use BI to also help that wizard. That's when Cutting Words has become more useful as a reaction. It can be used as needed on a PC who doesn't have or has already used up their BI.

Valor Bards can never cast the 2 bonus spells Lore Bards pick up via Magical Discoveries. Both options match Magical Secrets.

Plus better opportunity attacks, damage, and armor.

These aren't team oriented abilities. They're just useful abilities.

By taking away from allies landing attacks and making saves.

Preventing an ally from dropping grants them more actions and prevents the conditions associated with dropping. This also includes benefits like not losing concentration on a concentration spell for a spellcaster by either causing a miss or reducing the concentration save DC.

If you could use it Proficiency bonus times per day, then it would be something.

It's still something regardless. I'd rather have it run on BI because those recover on a short rest and can be fueled by spell slots in a pinch.

You don't get to choose the attack for Cutting Words. You randomly get one that it might work on.

Here's Cutting Words...

Level 3: Cutting Words​

You learn to use your wit to supernaturally distract, confuse, and otherwise sap the confidence and competence of others. When a creature that you can see within 60 feet of yourself makes a damage roll or succeeds on an ability check or attack roll, you can take a Reaction to expend one use of your Bardic Inspiration; roll your Bardic Inspiration die, and subtract the number rolled from the creature’s roll, reducing the damage or potentially turning the success into a failure.

How do you not choose the attack that your PC sees and is using their reaction on? It's not random. It's a judgement call on when to use it.

Possibly 2 attacks in a row hit barely hit, and you only have 1 reactions.

That's 1 more time than the 0 times other bards can use their reaction in this way.

Then the next turns the DM rolls 5 and 17 and you can't use it.

I actually can if I use Shapechange and turn into a Hydra. It's unlikely and late stage, but just sayin'. ;-)

But sure. Tandem can be wasted.

It can, but it also does the same thing where it's an opportunity cost against BI being handed out.

But it can trigger barbarian and rogue strikes. Which is even better.

How so? I'm not arguing that barbarian and rogues can hit harder than Dance Bards, just curious how you're applying triggering those attacks here.

They can punch with Truestrike for decent cantrip damage. And they get scaling AC.

Truestrike needs a weapon and I though Unarmed Strike did not count as a weapon. I would allow it but it doesn't seem RAW to me.

Do you give out dice before combat so allies so they can use them. Because then Lore would have none for Cutting Words.

Sometimes depending on the situation. I can reserve a use for Cutting Words or use a spell slot in a pinch if I think it's worth it.

But I expect i would mostly hand them out as needed. Probably to whoever has the biggest single attack.

This gets back to not having it for those who don't have BI given to them. That's the benefit of Cutting Words; it can be used to help someone who didn't get BI.

Oh! I also just realized. Inspired Movement can let a grappler drag a creature into a zone on the enemies turn. Then they do it again on their turn. Triple dipping a zone damage. Plus a punch.

Heck, under perfect circumstances, you grapple 2, your ally grapples 2, and you could drag 4 enemies into a zone as a reaction.

Inspiring Movement is an awesome ability. You can do that with Mantle of Inspiration too if you're playing on dragging through zones. Mantle of Inspiration grants movement to more allies than Inspiring Movement does.

 

[ECMO3]

Restrained gives
-A restrained creature’s speed becomes 0, and it can’t benefit from any bonus to its speed.
-Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have disadvantage.
-The creature has disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws.

If you are doing this you are not using Cunning Action to Disengage or Dash, meaning you have to be within walking distance. You are taking at least one AOO to pull it off (from the guy you are binding) and possibly more AOOs from others between you and the guy you are binding and the guy you are binding has to already be grappled or incapacitated to even try it.

These things make it highly situational. In those relatively rare situations where it would work, an Arcane Trickster can do it from 30 feet away with Mage Hand Legerdemain, without having to walk up into melee.

Finally, any Chain Warlock can have their familiar do it, without the PC even using a Bonus action. The familiars usally have a higher movement, they are usually invisible so they won't take AOOs, most of them can fly over bad guys in the way and if they can't fly they can go through the space of medium or larger bad guys if they need to.

In actual play IME this is not as beneficial as it seems in a whiteroom.

 

[FrogReaver]

On cutting words.

The ability is amazing if you can see the DMs rolls. Its nearly garbage if you cannot.

The big party friendly subclass ability is magical discoveries. There are so many amazing level 3 spells (or 2). Many of which are necessary for some of the strongest teamwork tactics and which the lore bard gets to tailor to the parties tactics from cleric/druid/wizard list.

Whatever cutting words lacks, I think magical discoveries more than makes up for.