D&D 5E Turn-a-round? Tricky terminology.

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Reading the latest playtest packet, it looks like they've made some changes to the way expertise dice (XD) work. Now, instead of them refreshing every ROUND at the end of your turn, they refresh every TURN. (At least I think? Mike Mearls and Trevor "clarified" it on Twitter, and after Mike said martial damage dice refresh "once per turn," Trevor said: "Yeah, your dice refresh at the beginning of your turn and you only get one reaction per round." So... huh?)

EDIT: Trevor clarified on his twitter feed that they are definitely only intended to refresh once per round at the start of your turn, so the wording here could definitely use revision.

ANYWAY, as the rules are currently written, you can use all your XD to stab a dude, then use your reaction to use all your XD to Protect or Parry or stab a dude again with an opportunity attack. Which makes Parry, Protect, and opportunity attacks VERY powerful for fighters. But it also means that they have a bit less tactical planning they need to do. There's no opportunity cost to using your XD on Parry or Protect, because those dice will refresh before your next turn. (In the previous packet, dice only refreshed at the end of your turn; in the packet before that, they refreshed at the BEGINNING of your turn, so if you blew all your dice on an attack you didn't have any left for defense.)

I kind of miss the tactical planning; even though it'd be a hit for fighters in terms of raw power, I'd rather see them have XD refresh only on the beginning of their turn, once per round, so they had to plan out how offensively or defensively they wanted to play that round.

Another note: this time around they had to remove most of the defensive maneuvers, like Lightning Reflexes and Great Fortitude, probably at least partly because XD refreshing every turn would make those basically huge flat bonuses to saves. Which puts us in a weird situation where rogues have access to class abilities that give them bonuses to Fort and Will saves but monks and fighters don't. Change the XD back to once per round and they can re-introduce more defensive and off-turn maneuvers.

On another, seemingly unrelated note, martial classes also get a Martial Damage Bonus (MDB) at higher levels, which is basically expertise dice you don't have to roll that can't be used for maneuvers. I think the math necessitates it somehow. But here's a thought: make that extra damage a flat bonus to ALL weapon/unarmed attacks, EXCLUDING attacks where you can't add your modifier to damage. (So two-weapon fighters and other wierd cases don't get an unnecessary extra damage buff.) The benefits of this are twofold: first, it means you can do more of the math on your character sheet, so you don't have to assign MDB every round. (Dice are enough to keep track of.) And second, it buffs your opportunity attacks a bit without needing dice to refresh every turn. Obviously, the numbers for the MDB could be shifted around to make the math work for this.

Kind of a wonky topic, but what do people think of this adaptation?

TLDR: MDB should be a flat damage bonus to all attacks where you can add your ability mod to damage; XD should refresh only at the beginning of your turn. (Which, according to Trevor, may in fact be what's intended.)

 

[am181d]

Yeah. I picked up on the same lack of clarity in the tweets. They need to be very explicit about what "round" and "turn" mean and then they need to be very precise every time they use those terms. Right now there are a number of places in the playtest packet where it is substantially unclear.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I'm still unclear.

If they refresh at the beginning of your turn (i.e., when your number comes up in cyclic initiative), and you blow them on an attack, then I'd think you don't have them for a reaction -- it's only if you save dice that you have them for reaction.

If they refresh at the end of your turn (i.e., after all actions have been taken during your spot in cyclic initiative), you can blow your remaining dice on an attack, and they refresh at the end. If a reaction is then needed after your spot in initiative, you can use one or more dice, but won't have them all available when your turn comes around the next time.

I think the latter is the better design, but it sounds like the intent is the former? Which is it now?

 

[DogBackward]

It's pretty obvious that Martial Damage Dice aren't meant to be per-turn, because that's just far too powerful. It should read "You refresh all of your Martial Damage Dice at the start of your turn." This was specifically clarified by Trevor, like OP said: ""Yeah, your dice refresh at the beginning of your turn and you only get one reaction per round." It's pretty clear: they don't refresh each turn, just your[/i] turn. So you get them at the start of your turn, and that's all you get until your next turn.

As for start of turn vs. end of turn... refreshing at the start of your turn is important, because it means you have to make an important decision between offense and defense. You still have to make the decision if it's at the end of your turn... but realistically, it makes more sense for you to have to choose between the risk of not needing the defense that you prepared versus the risk of not having a defense ready because you over-extended yourself with an all-out attack.

 

[Rune]

I'm still unclear.

If they refresh at the beginning of your turn (i.e., when your number comes up in cyclic initiative), and you blow them on an attack, then I'd think you don't have them for a reaction -- it's only if you save dice that you have them for reaction.

If they refresh at the end of your turn (i.e., after all actions have been taken during your spot in cyclic initiative), you can blow your remaining dice on an attack, and they refresh at the end. If a reaction is then needed after your spot in initiative, you can use one or more dice, but won't have them all available when your turn comes around the next time.

I think the latter is the better design, but it sounds like the intent is the former? Which is it now?

It's pretty obvious that Martial Damage Dice aren't meant to be per-turn, because that's just far too powerful. It should read "You refresh all of your Martial Damage Dice at the start of your turn." This was specifically clarified by Trevor, like OP said: ""Yeah, your dice refresh at the beginning of your turn and you only get one reaction per round." It's pretty clear: they don't refresh each turn, just your[/i] turn. So you get them at the start of your turn, and that's all you get until your next turn.

As for start of turn vs. end of turn... refreshing at the start of your turn is important, because it means you have to make an important decision between offense and defense. You still have to make the decision if it's at the end of your turn... but realistically, it makes more sense for you to have to choose between the risk of not needing the defense that you prepared versus the risk of not having a defense ready because you over-extended yourself with an all-out attack.

To repost from this thread:

All of the classes with combat expertise say that each die spent cannot be spent again on the same turn. The combat rules clarify that each creature in the initiative cycle gets its own turn.

This means the martial classes no longer have to choose between using their combat expertise dice ('cause that's what they are, despite the new name) proactively or reactively--now they can do both with all the dice available to them. And, for added fun, combat reflexes grants an extra opportunity attack per round--which can, of course, add in the extra dice of damage.

It's important to note that the dice don't refresh. They are simply a resource that can be used once and only once per turn. It is also pretty clear to me that it is very much intentional that they be available every turn, because, at higher levels, opportunity attacks would be completely irrelevant at higher levels.

Considering that there is only one way to ever have more than one reaction per round anyway (combat reflexes), and that that only gives one additional opportunity attack (which can not be any other kind of reaction), I don't see how the mechanic is in any way "too powerful."

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

It's important to note that the dice don't refresh. They are simply a resource that can be used once and only once per turn. It is also pretty clear to me that it is very much intentional that they be available every turn, because, at higher levels, opportunity attacks would be completely irrelevant at higher levels.
"

If that's so, though, why state it the way they did? The phrase "When you spend a martial damage die, you cannot use it again on the same turn." would not cause me to assume that I can therefore use it on every turn (I'd still assume only my turn based on the earlier language in the section).

The language needs some revision and clarification.

 

[Rune]

If that's so, though, why state it the way they did? The phrase "When you spend a martial damage die, you cannot use it again on the same turn." would not cause me to assume that I can therefore use it on every turn (I'd still assume only my turn based on the earlier language in the section).

The language needs some revision and clarification.

The only way it could be clearer is if they added on the section of the combat rules that specifically states that all creatures in the initiative cycle have their own turns within the round.

If that extra line in each (relevant) class description is necessary for clarity, it certainly ought to be there. As it is, it seems pretty clear to me (although it wasn't immediately clear--I spent quite some time trying to figure out where I had missed when they recharge. Then, it dawned on me that it didn't. This, incidentally, is very similar to how it would appear if it had been a 4e mechanic--they would assume you know the combat rules and include a subset of relevant information in the mechanic description based on that assumption.).

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I edited the op to reflect Trevor's latest tweet, which clarifies that the intent is definitely for the dice only to refresh once per round at the start of your turn. His feed is here: https://www.twitter.com/Trevor_WotC

Sorry for the crappy linking, I'm on my phone.

 

[DogBackward]

I edited the op to reflect Trevor's latest tweet, which clarifies that the intent is definitely for the dice only to refresh once per round at the start of your turn. His feed is here: https://www.twitter.com/Trevor_WotC

Sorry for the crappy linking, I'm on my phone.

Like I pointed out several posts up, his original tweet (the one in the OP) already clarified this without any ambiguity. He very specifically said that dice only refresh at the start of your turn, not every turn. I still don't get why that was so hard to understand.

 

[nightwalker450]

So is it official that they are recharged at the beginning of each turn instead of the end of each turn like they were last packet (either way is much better than every turn)?

I much prefer the end of each turn, since it allows for more reasonable characters than otherwise. With refresh at beginning of turn, offensive fighters will nearly always be able to use their dice, and defensive fighters will rarely use their dice. Since defensive fighters need to be attacked, and also hit in order to ever use their dice, once ignored they are useless. So every fighter will tend towards the offensive side, because then they can actually use their abilities. Offensive fighters, will only need to hit AC 10, to use their dice for damage.

With refresh at the end of the turn, offensive fighters will still be in the same place nearly always being able to deal damage using their dice. While defensive fighters can parry/protect to their hearts content, and become better defenders in that if you try to ignore them than they become damage dealers (due to not needing to put effort into defenses).