Turning magic on its head

[Exen Trik]

So far there's not enough to critique. If you don't like existing mana systems or existing free-form systems, and you haven't actually spelled out what you would do instead, there's not much we can discuss, is there?

Hmm ok, I'll give this another go.

I have a clear idea of the way I want this magic system to work, what I'm looking for is to get an approach for balancing, so I can develop the actual spells. So far I've gone back and forth with different numbers involved, gone around in circles and in the end have gotten nowhere. I'll try and detail the points of the system and what problems I've had with it.



Mana calculated like hit points: That is, classes each provide a different amount per level, and stat bonuses apply with an 18 giving +4 per level. What should the range of mana given by classes be, with a possible range of 0-80 or more points added to it from stats and levels? Would a random die roll work for mana as well as hit points, or should they be static numbers to control power levels? Should the caster classes get 6, 12, more points per level? How about a larger increase at 1st level? Should caster level be involved here? I want the stat increase to be significant, but not definitive of the casters abilities, so warriors wont ever have more mana than a wizard of their level.


Relative power of spells: Costs of spells may range between only a few mana to as many as a hundred, with the average being about a few dozen points. Stronger spells have increases of costs some amount higher than the increase in their effect, in order to compensate for having greater effect in less time. If a 10ft burst of 2d6 damage is 5 mana, what would be a fair value of a 20 ft burst of 5d6? For 30ft of 10d6? Single target of 15d6? Basically I need a mana analog of the level cap guidelines from the DMG. The actual values would vary depending on how much mana characters get, but the proportions should be independent of that.


Matters of scaling: Levels play very little role in the power of spells, with only save DC scaling along with caster level with a typical value of 10 + 1/2 CL. What does effect their power the most is ability scores, where the bonus applies to spell DC, duration, and damage per die. That means a spell that by itself is DC 10 and 2d6 damage is actually DC 14 and 2d6+8 damage when cast by someone with an 18 in the relevant ability score. This is a large difference in effect, and although I expect to balance this with healing and defenses, I do worry that it may complicate balancing too much. Bonuses from abilities and equipment work the same way, and can easily be as great of a factor.



That's the important stuff about it. I'm not looking for so much a one best answer, as finding different ways of putting this together effectively, and get some opinions on the concepts.

 

[Andre]

Hmm ok, I'll give this another go.

I have a clear idea of the way I want this magic system to work, what I'm looking for is to get an approach for balancing, so I can develop the actual spells. So far I've gone back and forth with different numbers involved, gone around in circles and in the end have gotten nowhere. I'll try and detail the points of the system and what problems I've had with it.



Mana calculated like hit points: That is, classes each provide a different amount per level, and stat bonuses apply with an 18 giving +4 per level. What should the range of mana given by classes be, with a possible range of 0-80 or more points added to it from stats and levels? Would a random die roll work for mana as well as hit points, or should they be static numbers to control power levels? Should the caster classes get 6, 12, more points per level? How about a larger increase at 1st level? Should caster level be involved here? I want the stat increase to be significant, but not definitive of the casters abilities, so warriors wont ever have more mana than a wizard of their level.


Relative power of spells: Costs of spells may range between only a few mana to as many as a hundred, with the average being about a few dozen points. Stronger spells have increases of costs some amount higher than the increase in their effect, in order to compensate for having greater effect in less time. If a 10ft burst of 2d6 damage is 5 mana, what would be a fair value of a 20 ft burst of 5d6? For 30ft of 10d6? Single target of 15d6? Basically I need a mana analog of the level cap guidelines from the DMG. The actual values would vary depending on how much mana characters get, but the proportions should be independent of that.


Matters of scaling: Levels play very little role in the power of spells, with only save DC scaling along with caster level with a typical value of 10 + 1/2 CL. What does effect their power the most is ability scores, where the bonus applies to spell DC, duration, and damage per die. That means a spell that by itself is DC 10 and 2d6 damage is actually DC 14 and 2d6+8 damage when cast by someone with an 18 in the relevant ability score. This is a large difference in effect, and although I expect to balance this with healing and defenses, I do worry that it may complicate balancing too much. Bonuses from abilities and equipment work the same way, and can easily be as great of a factor.



That's the important stuff about it. I'm not looking for so much a one best answer, as finding different ways of putting this together effectively, and get some opinions on the concepts.

Two points off the top of my head:

1. Concerning area effect spells, one possibility is to charge one extra mana per 5' square affected. 5' radius would be 4 squares, 10' radius would be 12 squares, 15' cone would be 6 or 7 (depending on facing), and so on. A 40' radius would be 172 squares! Not sure how well this scales with the rest of your system, but it might work as a starting point. (See page 307 in DMG for spell templates.)

2. Strictly my own opinion, but I think the current edition favors stats too much as is. With your system, a high spellcasting stat is at least as important as level. You'll end up with players only playing a caster if they can get a good stat - otherwise the power difference would be extreme. I'd personally favor a system where level is the primary determinant of power, and a good stat only has a marginal effect. YMMV.

 

[Exen Trik]

1. Concerning area effect spells, one possibility is to charge one extra mana per 5' square affected.

Interesting... It is nonlinear but scales up a bit too strongly. A 20th level caster with maxed out mana would barely cast one 40ft radius spell, certainly they aren't quite *that* good. Opposite problem with small spells, a strong 10ft spell that becomes twice as big is worth more than a few mana. Sometimes you don't even want all that area, especially in close quarters.

Perhaps a better approach is to consider what an average series of spells would look like, and base mana costs around that.

I'll set up a fireball series as so:
1st tier: 10 ft radius, 2d6 damage, Reflex DC 10 + 1/2 CL + Mod
2nd tier: 20 ft radius, 5d6 damage, Reflex DC 11 + 1/2 CL + Mod
3rd tier: 30 ft radius, 10d6 damage, Reflex DC 12 + 1/2 CL + Mod

We know that mana costs need to be nonlinear, since area and damage are nonlinear increases. Not sure about save DC though, I think that is linear, but its basically negligible at these values. The first tier blasting spell should be castable for a first level magic user once or twice a day, maybe three with high stats. If mana is equivalent to hp, that means a value of between 4 and 6, so lets go with 5.

I'd like for each spell to have some kind of value, even if stronger versions of it are gained. If the 2nd tier is twice as mana, than the first tier is mostly useless, unless you have very weak or near dead targets. If it is three times the cost, than the first spell is just barely more damage/mp efficient to one target after 3 rounds. At four times the cost, you might consider picking off enemies with the first spell instead of blasting them with the second, getting 60% more bang for your buck. So that would be 20 mana, which a 10th level magic user could cast 3-5 times. After bonuses to damage, that sounds just about right

The next spell is a around a doubling in area and damage from the last. Following the reasoning from the last spell, a doubling from the last spell is clearly too cheap, but four times means casting the last spell two times is twice as cost effective after only two rounds against single targets or small groups. Three times the cost a better fit, with 2nd tier being 50% more damage for the same cost after 3 rounds, so 60 mana looks about right. That can be cast 2 or 3 times by a 20th level magic user, and could be probably doubled in damage by then.

5 mana, 20 mana, 60 mana... it's a start I guess. I think my reasoning is sound, but let me know if any of you disagree.

2. Strictly my own opinion, but I think the current edition favors stats too much as is. With your system, a high spellcasting stat is at least as important as level. You'll end up with players only playing a caster if they can get a good stat - otherwise the power difference would be extreme. I'd personally favor a system where level is the primary determinant of power, and a good stat only has a marginal effect. YMMV.

One thing I forgot to mention is that casters aren't completely reliant on one ability score, Int is used for most Ref and Fort save spells, Wis for healing and Will save spells, and Cha is for mana bonuses. So, one stat doesn't rule them all. That doesn't do anything to solve the problem, but at least a more spread out stat build is a viable option.

Alternatively, I could remove damage bonuses from stats and make them class features only. It might leave to much importance on Cha... but Int and Wis still have skills and saves in their favor, so that may just work out.

 

[mirivor]

You may want to check out this little system from Sean K. Reynolds.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/magicsys.html

It is copyrighted, but so long as you ackowledge his credit you are good to go.

Later!