Tweaking spellcasters - feedback please

[Matrixryu]

* Clerics as walking first aid kits with no individuality.

You know, the more I try and think about ways to solve this without just handing out magical healing items or automatically healing people between fights, the more I realize why they created class 'roles' in 4e so that there wasn't a question of what each person was supposed to be doing. It is just easier to deal with, even if it is silly/unrealistic.

Anyway, I had another idea, hopefully this one will work better than the others. You stated that you want the characters to have to worry about attrition, but that doesn't work if they have an excessive amount of healing items. Perhaps there should be a limit on how much a single character can be magically healed in any given day? That would mean that people can't just throw their hit points around like they mean nothing, because there's a limit on how many 'magic bandaids' they can throw around.

You could fine tune things even more by having it so that there's an even lower limit on how much healing they can get from magical items. A cleric who is skilled at healing should be able to do a better job than a belt of healing.

Say, for example, you allow characters to completely heal up to their full hit points in one day. However unskilled healers using potions and magical items can only heal up to half that limit, and a cleric would be needed to get to the full limit. This way, you've taken some of the burden off of the cleric without letting the party completely rely on magical items.

Or another idea is that characters could go past their healing limits in an emergency if they were fighting something really nasty, but would suffer side effect/penalties later on after the fight. That means they could overheal if they really really needed it, but it isn't something that they would want to do and would try to find ways to avoid it.

Though, these are just some random thoughts....all this might not work and it might add too much complexity to a game.

 

[pseudodragon]

Re: Healing items

Magic item abuse is part of the problem, but I can exercise some control over that by simply making it harder to obtain. I will not have magic WalMarts in every city of my campaign and every town will not have an alchemist with shelves of potions available. The party will be able to purchase magic items here and there, but they will be fairly diversified and not necessarily exactly what the PCs might have ordered for themselves. For example, they may be able to get a couple of healing potions from a local temple, but in another town the local alchemist may not have any (although he probably has some other useful potions available). I can control the supply of healing magic based on how well the characters are already outfitted. I doubt that I will even make a healing belt available.

Of course, when it comes to magic items, players who have provided me with character backgrounds and motivations are much more likely to have a particular item of their desire pop up in an adventure than those who aren't as helfpful to their DM (hint, hint, nudge, nudge, Bob's your uncle).

 

[Matrixryu]

Yea, it sounds like what you're doing is pretty similar to the way my campaign is going. In my case guess I'll just have to see how it all works out, and re-balance things if they start relying on the lone healer too much.

 

[concerro]

Magic item abuse is part of the problem, but I can exercise some control over that by simply making it harder to obtain. I will not have magic WalMarts in every city of my campaign and every town will not have an alchemist with shelves of potions available. The party will be able to purchase magic items here and there, but they will be fairly diversified and not necessarily exactly what the PCs might have ordered for themselves. For example, they may be able to get a couple of healing potions from a local temple, but in another town the local alchemist may not have any (although he probably has some other useful potions available). I can control the supply of healing magic based on how well the characters are already outfitted. I doubt that I will even make a healing belt available.

Of course, when it comes to magic items, players who have provided me with character backgrounds and motivations are much more likely to have a particular item of their desire pop up in an adventure than those who aren't as helfpful to their DM (hint, hint, nudge, nudge, Bob's your uncle).

You players will probably wise up to this, and start taking magic item creation feats.

 

[pseudodragon]

Magic Items

Yes, they might take some item creation feats, although with my house rules they will receive item creation feats as they go up in level anyway. I'm fine with that if it gets them more into their spellcasting character. The XP and gold piece costs, not to mention the acquisition of esoteric items for the materials, should keep them from becoming little magic factories. If I had a group of more aggressive players (in terms of spellcasters), I might worry more about it, but with my players I would welcome a show of enthusiasm for the profession. Obviously, you may have to adjust the rules for your own players, such as having them gain another magic item creation feat every four levels instead of every 2 levels or doubling the XP cost of all magic items to deter overproduction. As always, the DM has the final say on how to implement such rules in his campaign.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

As someone who is currently running a wizard character, I too found the thought of leveling up and gaining more spells while out trekking through the plains a little odd. And then I realized that perhaps my character already had some of these higher level spells already in his spellbook, perhaps as a gift from his mentor, and had finally studied them enough to understand the more complex formula required to cast them. I tried very hard to pick spells that were similarly themed or related to the way my character likes to use his magic.

There is nothing too impossible about the idea unless the spell you suddenly gained is completely different from any other spell you have. I would assume any wizard is constantly studying his spells and trying to improve them.

Here is an example:

Bob the wizard loves his fire spells. Scorching Ray and Flame Sphere are both a regular in his arsenal. Unfortunately neither has the oopmh he really wants. So Bob has been researching. When Bob gets to 5th level one of the new spells he gains is of course Fireball. All his hard work paid off and he found a way to take modify the Flaming Sphere spell into an explosive projectile spell.

There are lots of spells that fit this. Shocking grasp may lead to lightning bolt. Feather fall to Fly. Expeditious Retreat to Haste.

Now the difficult part comes when your new spell chosen is completely out of left field and doesnt fit as a continuation of any current spell in your spellbook.

Do it this way and your wizard isnt beholden to the DM completely which can get irritating. If the Wizard PC is limited to scrolls he finds or higher level wizards who teach him then he 100% knows all his spells are being chosen by the DM. If at 9th level he meets a foe that he cannot hurt at all because he has nothign around the foes Immunities he knows who to be pissed at, the DM. But if you let the player chose some spells by research based on existing spells you give yourself an out and it fits well with the studious academic nature we all think when we see a wizard.

 

[pseudodragon]

Re: Spell Selection

Hi DocMoriartty,

You make valid points and if players of spellcasters all followed that sort of themed spell selection, then it would make perfect sense for them to acquire more powerful spells with similar effects at higher levels (in fact, the Elements of Magic supplement works very much like that). If one of my characters used that as a justification for a new spell, I would likely say, "Sure, go for it." I don't intend to pick spells for the characters. I want them to pick their own spells, but if they come out of left field they should be willing to either explain how they would acquire such knowledge or be willing to take steps with their character to do the research. For example, suppose the fire-based wizard you mentioned decided that he wanted to learn Vampiric Touch when he gained 5th level. Wow. That's quite a diversion from anything this wizard has tackled before. So, if his character hadn't learned any other necromantic spells, hadn't encountered anyone with necromantic magic, and hadn't made an attempt to locate or consult any necromantic resources (texts, sages, lab work, NPCs, etc), then I would feel completely justified in telling him that his character can learn the spell, but would need to a) do some spell research, b) find a wizard more familiar with necromancy to teach the spell to him, or c) come up with a more creative way of learning the spell. I wouldn't make it especially hard (after all, it's only a 3rd level spell), but I would want him to put a little effort into it. I might even grant a small experience award for the undertaking. Of course, the next time he wanted to learn a necromantic spell or something similar to Vampiric Touch, in any event, I might decide that he could use the mystical tomes he gathered for his previous research or that he could easily find the NPC who tutored him before. This is similar to the character training that 1st edition AD&D referred to. It wouldn't happen all the time, but if a PC wizard takes a new spell unlike anything he already has or has previously encountered, then he would have to earn it. If he picks a spell that fits his character conception, that he has observed or been attacked with before, or that is similar to other spells/magic items/research based resources that he already has, then he'll be able to get it without breaking a sweat.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Just a quickie from someone who plays with a lot of DMs who hate pets- Dragon #331 has an article about Staff Familiars.

paizo.com - Dragon Issue #338

See also:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboard...ts/dragon/generalDiscussion/improvedFamiliars

and

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-house-rules/203969-my-take-staff-familiars.html

 

[pseudodragon]

Re: Staff Familiars

I like the basic concept of the staff familiar, although I might expand it to be a personal focus so that a wizard who didn't use or want a staff could have another item for his focus (wand, ring, orb, hat, amulet, you get the idea). I would certainly allow a PC to have such a familiar, but at this point I'll be happy if I can just get one of my players to embrace the wizardly way. We'll build on it from there after he gets comfortable with a spellcaster.

I actually wrote up a series of druidic staves many years ago that aided druids with different specialty powers depending on the type of wood used. An oak staff might have granted +1 TH/Damage and Shillelagh once/day for every four levels the character had. A staff of rowan wood could offer a +1 bonus on saving throws and a dispelling strike (dispel magic on one item or area with a successful to hit roll) once/day for every four levels the character had. As I recall, the few times players actually played druids they seemed to like the staves, but I didn't continue with them past the first couple of campaigns. Players seemed to lose interest quickly once their PCs discovered a Staff of the Woodlands or something else more powerful than their order's staff.

At any rate, I love to see the sort of cross-fertilization that happens with new twists on old items (staff familiars, for example) and I'm always happy to work with such items if the players and the campaign benefit from it.