Twelve trees and green suns; refrences to a real world mythology?

[Bohandas]

There are a couple of inexplicable tropes I've seen in multiple unrelated series as symbols of evil, and I was wondering if anyone here knows if they're refrencing some real world mythology that I'm unfamiliar with

1.) The Green Sun- This appears in at least two unrelated places, the first is in Exalted where it is a manifestation of the third-circle demon lord Ligier, who is the heart and soul of the demon king Malfeas. The second in in Homestuck where there is a green sun that empowers the world destroying supervillains Lord English, Doc Scratch, and Bec Noir

Now the first one could possibly be a refrence to the general tendency of the sun to turn unnatural colors in doomsday literature (although I've never heard of green specifically; its usually black or red), but the second one is harder to explain

2.) Twelve Trees in a Perfect Circle - This one also appears in at least two places. The first is in Dungeons & Dragons as the abyssal layer "Twelvetrees". The second is in Twin Peaks as Glastonbury Grove, the entrence to the demonic Black Lodge.

That one doesn't make a lick of sense; it seems too arbitrary and too specific for two different groups to both have randomly decided on it

So does anyone know? Are either of these things refrence to an earlier mythology?

 

[Panda-s1]

The second in in Homestuck where there is a green sun that empowers the world destroying supervillains Lord English, Doc Scratch, and Bec Noir

oh good, I was worried I was gonna have to bring up Homestuck myself. idk though I thought it was a reference to Problem Sleuth, maybe I'm wrong?

2.) Twelve Trees in a Perfect Circle - This one also appears in at least two places. The first is in Dungeons & Dragons as the abyssal layer "Twelvetrees". The second is in Twin Peaks as Glastonbury Grove, the entrence to the demonic Black Lodge.

That one doesn't make a lick of sense; it seems too arbitrary and too specific for two different groups to both have randomly decided on it

So does anyone know? Are either of these things refrence to an earlier mythology?

Twelvetrees is apparently an uncommon surname, so maybe whoever wrote Manual of the Planes didn't like someone with that name? idk I want to imagine they named the 12th level of the Abyss after someone they didn't like. it's entirely possible Twin Peaks is making an oblique reference to that.

 

[Fenris-77]

The twelve thing is weird. Generally speaking 12 is a holy number in most cultures, and enormously so in Christianity. I don't know of any examples to the contrary, for trees or anything else. Possibly a conscious subversion of something holy? That would makes sense for the Abyss thing, although who knows about Twin Peaks.

 

[Numidius]

Googling:

In franciscan christian prayers are involved twelve trees surrounding the tree of life of the Scriptures.

The Sun can sometimes appear as a green spot for a second or two as it is rising or setting: this is known as green flash. Roughly speaking, the red light from the Sun is blocked by Earth, the blue light is scattered by the atmosphere, and the green light is refracted by the atmosphere to the observer.

In alchemy: On a human level, the green lion eating the sun is a metaphor for when a person's “consciousness [is] overwhelmed by violent, frustrated desires” (Fabricus). In other words, inside a person, when the metaphor of the green lion eating the sun takes place, the person is compelled to act out destructively.

 

[Umbran]

Go to Google.
Do a search on "The Tommyknockers"
Look at the associated images.
See that green? It is often called "Tommyknocker green". Media uses glowing green to be "unnatural power". I don't think this is a matter of real-world mythology, so much as visual media tropes.

 

[Tonguez]

I suspect the Grove of 12 Trees is a reference to the Trees in Celtic ‘Astrology’ which is claimed to be an Irish system based on a 13 month lunar calendar and has correspondences with the Ogham alphabet.

The Green Sun is weird and I’d also guess it links to the Green Lion eating the Sun of Alchemy

 

[Ringtail]

The green sun thing might just be a play on that green being somewhat of an unhealthy color when used in fiction. While not exactly a sun, I can think of Warpstone and all its related Chaos magic/fire in Warhammer has a green color. (Plus the Chaos Moon Morrslieb is also green, maybe made of Warpstone?) If you're a WoW fan the Burning Legion - a horde of space-traveling, plane-hopping demons for the uninitiated - revolve around a green flame aesthetic.

 

[Bohandas]

The Sun can sometimes appear as a green spot for a second or two as it is rising or setting: this is known as green flash. Roughly speaking, the red light from the Sun is blocked by Earth, the blue light is scattered by the atmosphere, and the green light is refracted by the atmosphere to the observer.

I definitely think you've solved this at least as it pertains to Exalted.

Roll of Glorious Divinity II explicitly mentions the green sun having unbidden power at dusk and dawn

 

[Bohandas]

Ok, I've noticed another weird congruence between different media. The Elder Scrolls games and the Exalted rulebook Graceful Wicked Masques: The Fair Folk seem to tell basically the same creation story, wherein an initially undifferentiated and timeless cosmos is divided by a primal force (Padomay/Akel in TES, Shinma Iraivan in Exalted) to create the original spirits. Time also comes into existence but there is not yet a single self-consistent timeline. Then some of the original spirits (The Aedra in Elder Scrolls or the Yozis/Neverborn in Exalted) mutilate or disfigure themselves in order to create the mundane world. At this point time becomes a single self-consistent history. The spirits who took no part in creating the world (The Daedra in TES or Raksha/Fair Folk/Chaos Lords in Exalted) mock and deride the spirits who disfigured themselves but find themselves morbidly fascinated by their creation and frequently interfere with it.

 

[Autumnal]

This is from Tolkien’s essay On Fairy-Stories, which I know was in the inspiration mix doe Exsltrd - I wasn’t the only one who brought it up.

“For my present purpose I require a word which shall embrace both the Sub-Creative Art in itself, and a quality of strangeness and wonder in the Expression, derived from the Image: a quality essential to fairy-story. I propose, therefore, to arrogate to myself the powers of Humpty-Dumpty, and to use Fantasy for this purpose: in a sense, that is, which combines with its older and higher use as an equivalent of Imagination the derived notions of 'unreality' (that is, of unlikeness to the Primary World), of freedom from the dominion of 'observed fact,' in short of the fantastic. I am thus not only aware but glad of the etymological and semantic connexions of fantasy with fantastic: with images of things that are not only 'not actually present,' but which are indeed not to be found in our primary world at all, or are generally believed not to be found there. But while admitting that, I do not assent to the depreciative tone. That the images are of things not in the primary world (if that indeed is possible) is, I think, not a lower but a higher form of Art, indeed the most nearly pure form, and so (when achieved) the most Potent.

“Fantasy, of course, starts out with an advantage: arresting strangeness. But that advantage has been turned against it, and has contributed to its disrepute. Many people dislike being 'arrested.' They dislike any meddling with the Primary World, or such small glimpses of it as are familiar to them. They, therefore, stupidly and even maliciously confound Fantasy with Dreaming, in which there is no Art; and with mental disorders, in which there is not even control; with delusion and hallucination.

“But the error or malice, engendered by disquiet and consequent dislike, is not the only cause of this confusion. Fantasy has also an essential drawback: it is difficult to achieve. . . . Anyone inheriting the fantastic device of human language can say the green sun. Many can then imagine or picture it. But that is not enough -- though it may already be a more potent thing than many a 'thumbnail sketch' or 'transcript of life' that receives literary praise.

“To make a Secondary World inside which the green sun will be credible, commanding Secondary Belief, will probably require labour and thought, and will certainly demand a special skill, a kind of elvish craft. Few attempt such difficult tasks. But when they are attempted and in any degree accomplished then we have a rare achievement of Art: indeed narrative art, story-making in its primary and most potent mode.”