twf: can you use 2 x smaller-than-you spiked chains and still have reach?

[evilbob]

Assuming proficiency feats have been taken for all: could a large-sized creature that normally had a 5' reach wield two medium-sized spiked chains for TWF and have a 10' reach with each? And would the Oversized TWF feat from Complete Adventurer negate the additional -2 penalty, since the spiked chain would be a 1-handed weapon? What about a large creature with a 10' normal reach?

For that matter, could a medium creature use two "small" spiked chains and still have a 10' reach?

Or would all of this basically not work because smaller versions of reach weapons wouldn't reach? If that's the case, it seems it would follow that a goliath could use a "large" spiked chain to get a 20' reach (typical "reach" value for a large creature). Is this possible?

Or, could a goliath just use two normal spiked chains for TWF with reach, since clearly these would avoid the entire "does this give a medium creature a 10' reach" part of the issue?

 

[Caliban]

Reach weapons double the wielders natural reach. Using larger versions doesn't give additional reach (unless there is a special ruling for that particular weapon). So, no extra reach for the Goliath using a Large spiked chain.

According to the FAQ (if I remember correctly) using a reach weapon sized for a smaller creature does not grant you any additional reach.

 

[sirwmholder]

But a 'small' spiked chain has reach of 10' so a medium character could wield it in one hand though it would be a medium weapon instead of a light weapon in his off hand. So he would still take penalties for duel wielding ( off hand not being light ). Not sure what the Oversized Feat does, IDHTBIFOM. But if it allows you to use a medium weapon in your off hand, then it looks like by the RAW it would work.

That's how I read it anyway,
William Holder

 

[frankthedm]

Assuming proficiency feats have been taken for all: could a large-sized creature that normally had a 5' reach wield two medium-sized spiked chains for TWF and have a 10' reach with each?

No.

And would the Oversized TWF feat from Complete Adventurer negate the additional -2 penalty, since the spiked chain would be a 1-handed weapon?

A penaty for two weapon fighting, perrhaps, but the feat could never touch the "wrong weapon size" penalty.

What about a large creature with a 10' normal reach?

Still needs a reach weapon of appropriate size.

For that matter, could a medium creature use two "small" spiked chains and still have a 10' reach?

Rules are Blurry for that.

Or would all of this basically not work because smaller versions of reach weapons wouldn't reach?

Blurry.

If that's the case, it seems it would follow that a goliath could use a "large" spiked chain to get a 20' reach (typical "reach" value for a large creature). Is this possible?

No, the rules are clear that reach weapons grant a medium creature 10' reach. no more. A Large (long) centaur uses the same large reach weapons as a Large (tall) ogre. The Centaur gets 10' reach, the ogre gets 20' reach with the same reach weapon.

Reach Weapons
Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

 

[Doug McCrae]

With TWF and Oversized TWF, a large creature wielding two medium spiked chains would be at -4 to hit with each attack. -2 from TWF and an additional -2 for inappropriately sized weapons (see PHB page 113). So it wouldn't be very effective.

 

[Hypersmurf]

As written in the PHB, a Small or Medium creature wielding a Reach weapon can strike 10 feet but not 5 feet (which the spiked chain overrides, allowing one to strike adjacent creatures). A Large creature wielding a Reach weapon of appropriate size can strike 15 feet or 20 feet, but not 5 feet or 10 feet (which the spiked chain overrides, allowing one to strike adjacent creatures - so a Large creature with a Large spiked chain can technically strike 5 feet, 15 feet, or 20 feet, but not 10 feet, as written).

So as written in the PHB, a Large creature with a Medium Reach weapon is not wielding a Reach weapon of appropriate size, and the sentence is inapplicable. But a Medium creature wielding a Small Reach weapon is wielding a Reach weapon, and thus can strike 10 feet but not 5 feet.

This makes sense to me, since if a Small creature can reach ten feet with a pointy stick, it would seem odd if someone bigger could only reach 5 feet... but if a Medium creature can reach ten feet (an extra five) it doesn't automatically follow that a Large creature should be able to reach twenty feet (an extra ten) with the same pointy stick.

So I agree with the PHB ruling, and find the FAQ response uncompelling.

Personally, my preference is to use a modified-for-3.5 Savage Species system, which essentially gives each weapon a 'reach modifier'... so a Small or Medium reach weapon gives +5 feet of reach, a Large reach weapon gives +10 feet of reach, and a Huge reach weapon gives +15 feet of reach; a Tiny reach weapon allows a Tiny or smaller creature to strike adjacent foes (but not those in the same square), while having no special effect on Small or Larger creatures.

-Hyp.

 

[Sejs]

Let's see here, a medium creature using two small spiked chains:

...-2/-2 for fighting with two weapons w/ TWF and Oversized TWF.
...An additional -2 to-hit on each for using a weapon of inappropriate size.
...Damage drops to 2d3.
...Weapons are 1h and small, so easy to disarm.



So... you get to spend 3 feats in order to TWF with hideously inferior weapons and get a -4/-4 to hit.

Whee. :\

 

[frankthedm]

Personally, my preference is to use a modified-for-3.5 Savage Species system, which essentially gives each weapon a 'reach modifier'... so a Small or Medium reach weapon gives +5 feet of reach, a Large reach weapon gives +10 feet of reach,

So do you treat centaurs as weilding medium weapons and having medium reach or do they get to wield large weapons with the bonus reach?

 

[evilbob]

frankthedm: So a 10' reach weapon for a medium creature becomes a 5' reach weapon for a large creature with a 5' reach? That doesn't follow. Or were you saying something else there?

frankthedm: "No, the rules are clear that reach weapons grant a medium creature 10' reach. no more." Actually, the rules include the words "most" and "typical" a lot in those descriptions... And a goliath is a "large" creature for weapon-size determinations. Seems a bit more blurry to me.

Anyone: Are there any other thoughts about the reach capabilites for a large spiked chain in
the hands of a medium creature, either by being a goliath or through Monkey Grip?

Hypersmurf: "But a Medium creature wielding a Small Reach weapon is wielding a Reach weapon, and thus can strike 10 feet but not 5 feet." So you're saying two 1-handed small spiked chains would be ok for a medium creature to wield and grant 10' reach on each. How would you come down on the two medium-sized chains for a large creature/goliath - 10' reach again? What about a large-sized chain for a medium creature?

Sejs: "So... you get to spend 3 feats in order to TWF with hideously inferior weapons and get a -4/-4 to hit." ...at 7 attacks a round from 10' away. Whee! Also, it seems to me that a goliath gets around many of the "inproperly sized" weapon penalties since they are able to effectively wield both medium and large weapons. So a goliath TWFer with two medium chains and the Oversized feat would seemingly have only a -2/-2, the normal penalty for TWF. Whee! again.

 

[frankthedm]

frankthedm: So a 10' reach weapon for a medium creature becomes a 5' reach weapon for a large creature with a 5' reach? That doesn't follow. Or were you saying something else there?

And there is a good reason for that! The typical large creature that can wield a weapon in the first place is a large tall creature. That paragraph did not address Large (long) creatures.

frankthedm: "No, the rules are clear that reach weapons grant a medium creature 10' reach. no more." Actually, the rules include the words "most" and "typical" a lot in those descriptions...

Because they refer to Large (tall) creatures.

And a goliath is a "large" creature for weapon-size determinations. Seems a bit more blurry to me.

Not blurry at all. "A goliath can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size." The ability that allows the use of larger weapon calls out goliaths determine reach as medium creatures. Whatever bluriness may exist in the larger size catagories does not have any bearing on the powerful built Goliath and Halfgiant.