twf: can you use 2 x smaller-than-you spiked chains and still have reach?

[mvincent]

if a Small creature can reach ten feet with a pointy stick, it would seem odd if someone bigger could only reach 5 feet

I previously had the same issue. However, after reflecting on it, I reasoned that there would be a considerable difference in how one threatened an area when wielding a long pointy stick in one hand rather than two. With one hand, you would probably need to hold a very long, pointy stick towards the middle. With two hands, you could hold the long shaft towards the end.

D&D combat is fairly abstract anyway (that's why small people have effectively the same reach as medium people in the first place), so I'm ok with generally following the FAQ's ruling here (which is also good to prevent some possible abuses). Mind you, I'd still allow a medium creature to have reach with a small reach weapon if he was holding it in both hands.

 

[werk]

But a 'small' spiked chain has reach of 10' so

So a 10' reach weapon...

This is the problem.

Weapons, themselves, do not have a reach in feet, they either grant reach to the wielder or they do not. Reach is a function of the wielder's natural threat area.

So the more easily applied question is: "Do inappropriately sized reach weapons grant reach to the weilder?"


The FAQ says no. "Wielding a 'too small' reach weapon grants no reach."

 

[Hypersmurf]

So do you treat centaurs as weilding medium weapons and having medium reach or do they get to wield large weapons with the bonus reach?

Under the modified Savage Species system?

A centaur could wield a Large reach weapon and threaten 15 feet only, or he could wield a Medium reach weapon (at -2) and threaten 10 feet only, or he could wield a non-reach weapon and threaten at 5 feet only.

Hypersmurf: "But a Medium creature wielding a Small Reach weapon is wielding a Reach weapon, and thus can strike 10 feet but not 5 feet." So you're saying two 1-handed small spiked chains would be ok for a medium creature to wield and grant 10' reach on each. How would you come down on the two medium-sized chains for a large creature/goliath - 10' reach again? What about a large-sized chain for a medium creature?

It depends, when you say "How would you come down?", on whether you mean under the rules in the 3.5 PHB, or under the modified Savage Species system I use.

PHB:
Medium creature, Small spiked chain: It's a reach weapon. 10 feet (or adjacent).
Large creature, Medium spiked chain: Not a reach weapon of appropriate size, so treat it as a non-reach weapon - he can hit within his natural reach. (5 feet for a centaur, 5 or 10 feet for an ogre.)
Medium creature, Large spiked chain: It's a reach weapon. 10 feet (or adjacent).

MSS:
Medium creature, Small spiked chain: It's a reach weapon with a +5' shift. 10 feet (or adjacent).
Large creature, Medium spiked chain: It's a reach weapon with a +5' shift. 10-15 feet (or adjacent). Or, for a centaur, 10 feet (or adjacent).
Medium creature, Large spiked chain: It's a reach weapon with a +10' shift. 15 feet (or adjacent).

-Hyp.

 

[KerlanRayne]

In case you're trying to use this in a real build instead of exploring the rules about it, there is another option. The Kusari Gama is an optional exotic weapon from the DMG that is a light weapon with 5' and 10' reach. You can dual wield them with no penalties.

KerlanRayne

 

[Sejs]

...at 7 attacks a round from 10' away. Whee! Also, it seems to me that a goliath gets around many of the "inproperly sized" weapon penalties since they are able to effectively wield both medium and large weapons. So a goliath TWFer with two medium chains and the Oversized feat would seemingly have only a -2/-2, the normal penalty for TWF. Whee! again.

7 attacks a round with an inferior weapon that gives you accuracy problems. 7 attacks .. so we're assuming further along the TWF feat line, so there's more opportunity cost.

And going goliath to mitigate the feat cost is going to set you back in more substantial ways. Now you're down a level for the +1 LA, and the goliath's -2 dex means you're going to have an even harder time keeping up with the dex requirements on the TWF line of feats.

Tricked out, a goliath'll be making 4 attacks with their main chain at 2d4 + (1x str mod) and 3 attacks with their off chain at 2d4 + (0.5x str mod), at 10' reach. Or they could just use a large glaive, still trip from 10' away, deal 2d8 + (1.5x str mod), have no penalty to hit, get better power attack returns, and not have to shell out a bunch of feats to do it.

The benefit returned on the chains just is not worth the cost required to use them.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Also, it seems to me that a goliath gets around many of the "inproperly sized" weapon penalties since they are able to effectively wield both medium and large weapons. So a goliath TWFer with two medium chains and the Oversized feat would seemingly have only a -2/-2, the normal penalty for TWF. Whee! again.

I missed this before. A Medium Spiked Chain is a two-handed weapon for a goliath - he is a Medium creature. A Large Spiked Chain is a two-handed weapon for a goliath - due to Powerful Build, he can wield weapons designed for a Large creature without penalty.

Note that Powerful Build has no effect on weapons designed for a Medium creature, so he cannot wield a Medium Spiked Chain as a one-handed weapon; it is still a two-handed weapon.

-Hyp.