Twist on the mystic theurge

[Scion]

I was looking over the various theurge threads and thinking about what makes it powerful and what makes it weak.

Generally I see the wiz3/clr3/MT10 + taking levels in only one of the two as being the strongest option while going wiz5/clr5/MT10 to be the weakest.

Some may disagree, if so I'd love to hear why

But getting to the main point of this thread, I was hoping to make a balanced version that also had more flavor. So, here we go (also, if anyone knows a better format I would have no problem changing it to look better, I don’t know how to make the tables on this site).

Mystic Theurge
HD: d6
Prereqs:
Skills: at least 5 ranks in 5 different knowledges, two of these must be Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion)
Feats: Skill focus (knowledge(any))
Spells: Caster level 2 for both arcane and divine spells
Class skills: All skills on the list of the class you are using to pass the arcane spell requirement and all skills on the list of the class you are using to pass the divine spell requirement
Skill Points: 2 skill points
BAB: Poor
Saves: All poor
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
1st +0 +0 +0 +0 Attrition 1, Armored casting
2nd +1 +0 +0 +0 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
3rd +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
Knowledge bonus
4th +2 +1 +1 +1 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
5th +5 +3 +3 +3 Attrition 2, 2 bonus metamagic feats
6th +3 +2 +2 +2 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
7th +3 +2 +2 +2 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
8th +4 +2 +2 +2 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
9th +4 +3 +3 +3 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
Mind over body
10th +5 +3 +3 +3 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
11th +5 +3 +3 +3 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
12th +6 +4 +4 +4
13th +6 +4 +4 +4 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
14th +7 +4 +4 +4 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
15th +7 +5 +5 +5 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
16th +8 +5 +5 +5 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class


Attrition 1: If you had the ability to gain a familiar you lose this ability. If you had two separate abilites to gain a familiar you only lose one of them. This means that if you had levels of sorcerer and levels of wizard whichever you chose to fuel this class would no longer grant you extra ability for a familiar.
If you have any domains choose one and you lose access to it. You no longer gain its benefit nor have access to its spells.

Armored casting: Whenever you wear armor treat the arcane spell failure chance as being 10% lower than it actually is. If you are wearing no armor while casting spells then you gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC against anyone taking an aoo against you from your spellcasting.

Knowledge bonus: Your mind is trained to be incredibly sharp. On all knowledge checks you gain a bonus equal to half of your levels in Mystic Theurge. This bonus cannot exceed half of the ranks that you have in that skill (i.e. if you have 10 ranks in knowledge (religion) and are level 14 in mystic theurge then you could get up to +7 from level but are limited to +5 from ranks so you get a +5 bonus on that knowledge check).

Attrition 2: Your efforts at dual training has taken its toll on your body, your maximum hp is reduced by 1 hp/hd. This ability is retroactive and continuous.

Bonus metamagic feats: Choose any metamagic feat that you have the prereqs for and gain that feat.

Mind over body: Once per day per 4 levels of Mystic theurge you may convert some of the damage you have taken into nonlethal damage (or convert nonlethal damage directly into not being damage). This amount is: d20 + level of mystic theurge + modifier of prime stat for arcane spells + modifier of prime stat for divine spells. If your prime stat for each is the same you only get to add it once.


That is all I have at the moment. I would like a few more flavorful abilities tossed in there, preferably ones where the person gets to choose from a couple and/or depend on the classes used to qualify to get in.

I know it isnt a standard 5 or 10 level class, nor does it start at 6th or higher, but the idea behind it is solid enough.

Basically at level 5 one could take their first level of this class and it would take them all the way up to level 20 with final caster levels of 15/15.

Lots of drawbacks here, so there should be tons of room for good, flavorful abilities along with some extra power.

 

[Wyrmcrest]

I like the Attritions. The only issue with it is that MT's already suffer from stunted spell progression and players aren't going to want to sacrifice any more. If players want flavor, there's plenty of PrC's with flavor. If a player choses an MT, they want the simultaneous arcane/divine spell progression it provides.

It might be interesting to create MT replacement levels. Make class features available to them that they could take at any MT level by sacrificing a level of their dual spell progression. You might have some of those replacement level still have an increase to either arcane or divine spells combined with a weaker feature.

Just some ideas. Hope they help.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

hmmmm..... As you probably saw in the other thread, I would also like to see the MT becomes something a little more itself. Two issues with your suggestion - one, if you aren't going to give full arcane & divine progressions, I think you should stagger them so you are getting at least one or the other every level. You have either both or nothing. Second, I don't like the idea of taking away class features. seems mean. Also not thrilled at the all poor saves.

Since I was going to start this exact same thread, I'll just throw my idea in here too....

prereq, +8 know arcane & know divine, Magic or Knowlege domain, and the ability to cast Detect Undead and Owl's wisdom as arcane spells.
hd d6
Bab poor
Saves - will good
Skill points 2

specials:
1 +1 Arcane/+1 Divine, Planar familiar
2 +1 Divine, Blended casting
3 +1 Arcane/+1 divine, Divine Metamagic
4 +1 Arcane, Arcane Domain
5 +1 Arcane/+1 Divine
6 +1 Arcane/+1 Divine, Divine Metamagic
7 +1 divine, Blended casting
8 +1 Arcane/+1 Divine
9 +1 Arcane, Arcane Domain, divine metamagic
10 +1 Arcane/+1 Divine

Planar familiar - If you possess a familiar from your arcane spellcasting class, it no longer progresses according to that class. Instead it follows the new planar progression [insert new progression that basically gives your familiar the celestial or fiendish template acording to whether you channel positive or negitive energy]

Blended Casting - Starting at second level you gain the ability to cast certain arcane spells as though they were divine. You may cast your cantrips, 1st and 2nd level spells as if hey were divine, including the lack of arcane spell failure, but also including allignment restrictions. At 7th level, this ability extends to 3rd 4th and 5th level spells.

Divine metamagic - At 3rd 6th and 9th level you gain a special metamagic feat which can be spontaneously activated on any spell, arcane or divine, by spending a turning or rebuking attempt. The feat does not need to be one you already have the normal version of, but if it is not, you cannot apply it normally by increasing the spell level.

Arcane Domains - at 4th level you may choose one of your clerical domains and learn all of the spells included as arcane spells. These can now be prepared in your arcane spell slots, or cast spontaneously as arcane spells depending on your prior arcane class. At 9th level your second domain also becomes known as arcane spells.

Thats very rough, I haven't even considered it for balance yet, just flavor.

 

[Scion]

I was going to stagger the progression, but then I figured it would be mostly the same anyway and this way is much easier to read.

I have no problem with the normal mystic theurge gaining 10 of each over 10 levels, even with that they are lacking in power anyway. I was just trying to combine several of the weaker versions I saw, pack them together with some flavor, and then top on some power to have a viable class choice for those who want to do the old Cl/M route from 2nd edition

In a balanced way of course.

Some of the biggest problems with the current theurge is the horrible lack of power early on and the lack luster choices later on.

The attritions are merely ways of adding in some extra bad later on to make the class a harder choice while trying to focus on the dual nature.


Mystic theurge replacement levels I wouldnt even begin to know how to begin ;/ The only thing that the class has to give up are the caster levels, it would have to be a pretty hefty bonus to make up for that loss!


It has been awhile for me, but isnt your build Kahuana Burger very similar to a class from 3.0? I cant think of the name and dont have the book with me, but you gain in caster levels and get to choose the best form of any spell you cast from the various schools and start transforming in small ways.

I agree that those could be very interesting choices though..

Perhaps about halfway through there could be 3 options:

1) Summon pet - Gain a familiar like creature back, although a special one with slightly different rules. Likely following some of the rules for animal companion. Make a list of creatures based on the choices that the character has made (ie if they have the air domain they could pick one of the weaker air elementals or something like that, or based on aligment for an animal with the appropriate template, etc).

Perhaps it could be to be able to cast a special spell that takes up a top level slot and is basically a summon monster/natures ally. It would last for 24 hours and grant a few extra benefits like alertness.

Could work.. hmm

2) Blended casting - Whenever you memorize/spontaneously cast a spell you may treat it as either arcane or divine. If you have the same spell as both a divine and an arcane spell then you may cast them both in the same round, the second is quickened for free. Maybe some other benefit as well.

3) Two become one - Whichever of your primary ability scores are higher is the value you use for all spell purposes: Save dc, bonus spells, highest spell level capable of being cast, etc.


They of course need a bit more balancing and tweaking, but it could be fun. It would also help to make one theurge different from another. Something that is rather lacking in the default version.

 

[RangerWickett]

Scion, I sent you a complimentary copy of E.N. Publishing's Secrets of Theurgy. I thought you might be interested in the book. It doesn't take as drastic an approach as yours, but it has some ways to make Theurges a wee bit more interesting. If you like it, take a look at the rest of the store, and maybe become a customer.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

It has been awhile for me, but isnt your build Kahuana Burger very similar to a class from 3.0? I cant think of the name and dont have the book with me, but you gain in caster levels and get to choose the best form of any spell you cast from the various schools and start transforming in small ways.

the geomancer. It was a very odd class and didn't really seem to know what it wanted to be - you combine two kinds of magic and grow scales? this relates to the earth how? yeah, the blended spellcasting was at least partially inspired from there.

3) Two become one - Whichever of your primary ability scores are higher is the value you use for all spell purposes: Save dc, bonus spells, highest spell level capable of being cast, etc.

that would be a good one. There a lot of options for a truely combined arcane/divine class, you might be right that giving a menu of options and letting each thuerge customize is the best way....

 

[Scion]

Scion, I sent you a complimentary copy of E.N. Publishing's Secrets of Theurgy. I thought you might be interested in the book. It doesn't take as drastic an approach as yours, but it has some ways to make Theurges a wee bit more interesting. If you like it, take a look at the rest of the store, and maybe become a customer.

Thanks I havent had time yet to look it over as thoroughly as I would like just yet. Where would I go to comment about it if I have any questions?

 

[Scion]

the geomancer. It was a very odd class and didn't really seem to know what it wanted to be - you combine two kinds of magic and grow scales? this relates to the earth how? yeah, the blended spellcasting was at least partially inspired from there.

I thought it was a great idea with potential but fell a little short in several areas.. I havent had a player want it yet, but if I did we would most likely come up with an appropriate 'theme' for the abilities that they recieved.

that would be a good one. There a lot of options for a truely combined arcane/divine class, you might be right that giving a menu of options and letting each thuerge customize is the best way....

Yeah, I was thinking the same. Maybe some people will help a little