Two Birds With One Stone: Counterspelling & Spellduel

[Gez]

Crossposted from the counterspell thread at General Discussion, which finally made me write the ideas floating in my head about that topic:

I thought about something along those lines for counterspell house rules, but haven't implemented anything yet:

Counterspelling (aka spell duel) is an action that takes several rounds. You can initiate one as a swift action, but maintaining it is a standard action.

When a spellcaster casts a spell, you can use a swift action to spend one spell slot of equal or higher level than the spell slot he used to cast his spell in order to initiate the counterspelling.

If you are a spontaneous spellcaster, you must know of a spell of the same school as the countered spell, of a level no higher than the spell slot you used for counterspelling. If you prepare spells, the spell you spend must be of the same school. In both cases, if you have improved counterspell, this limitation doesn't apply. (The dispel magic line of spells also ignore this limitation -- a sorcerer knowing dispel magic can counterspell any 3rd-level or lower spell from any school.)

You and the opponent caster then both make opposed Spellcraft checks, adding the spell slot's level as a bonus. (This does give an advantage to wizards, who are better at counterspelling than most. Especially abjurers who have a +1 class bonus to this roll. Sorcerers also have an asset in that they're more likely to be able to counter than preparing spellcasters.)

If one spellcaster wins the opposed roll by 10 or more, then he can choose to dissipate the spell energy harmlessly, or to unleash it where he wants (in that way, it is possible to hijack another spellcaster's spell and turn it against him). With the Consume Spell feat, it is possible to instead absorb it to replenish a lower-level slot, which is nifty as well.

If neither beat the opponent by a wide enough margin, then the counterspelling is maintained to the next round. Both of the spellduelists' initiative counts are synchronised by the spellduel, so they act on the same round (use the lowest of both initiatives).

Maintaining a spellduel is a standard action for each duellist. If you are unable or unwilling to perform that action, your opponent automatically wins the duel. Both duelists must continue making opposed Spellcraft checks. Both can use a swift action to expend one of their prepared spells or spell slots in order to get a bonus equal to the spell slot's level to the check, however this is not necessary once the duel is engaged. Once again, a tie (difference smaller than 10 between both results) result in the spellduel maintained to the next round.

If you are distracted while maintaining a counterspell, you must succeed at a Concentration check (DC depending on distraction), just like casting a spell. Furthermore, any move action you do on that round is a distracting task with a minimum DC of 5 (use the normal DC if it is higher for this task, like riding a mount). If you fail the Concentration check, then your opponent automatically succeeds at the next spellduel check. (It's better to make your move action after maintaining the spellduel, that way your eventual failure won't be after the next round.)

Range: Spellduel, aka counterspell, can only be engaged or maintained if you are no more than 5 feet per Spellcraft rank from the opposed spellcaster. If one spellcaster is out of range but not the other (thanks to a difference in skill ranks between both), the one out of range loses the spellduel. If both becomes out of range between two Spellcraft checks (for example, one of the mages moved away or was teleported away), then the original spellcaster wins the spellduel.​

 

[Ferret]

Me likey very much.

*Pinch*

 

[Gez]

You seem to be the only one!

 

[BarkingDeathSquirrel]

You seem to be the only one!

I quite like it! Counterspelling seems like too much of a waste of time, but this actually gives a good reason to try and counterspell. Only thing I see is that with you only winning the opposed check by 10 or more points it may take a while to resolve a spell duel. It certainly gives quickened spells (or swift spells) a whole new use.... but that leaves the poor sorcerer in the dust in that regard. I've been considering allowing sorcerers to use a quickened spell as move action... or even just remove the restriction altogether. The length could also pose a problem for a spellcasting BBEG... leaving them too vulenerable if they don't want their spells being used against them, but again... they could have a load of quickened spells prepared...

As I said.... I really like this!

 

[Gez]

The "winning by 10 mechanism" is there as an incentive to continue fueling the spellduel with spell slots. Either spend more resources to counter the threat, or just wash your hands of it already and suffer the consequences! As sorcerers have far more spell slots to burn, this gives them a slight edge, which compensate for the loss of Quicken Spell...

 

[BarkingDeathSquirrel]

The "winning by 10 mechanism" is there as an incentive to continue fueling the spellduel with spell slots. Either spend more resources to counter the threat, or just wash your hands of it already and suffer the consequences! As sorcerers have far more spell slots to burn, this gives them a slight edge, which compensate for the loss of Quicken Spell...

Oh... didn't notice that you could expend spell slots to increase spellcraft. Yeah, I guess Quicken Spell wouldn't be that useful then, since you'd have a better chance of losing the check. Still... I have no particular qualms about sorcerers being able to use quicken spell...

Edit: Oh... a few things:
Would it be better to say that initiating a spell duel is a immediate action, rather than a swift, since swift actions can only be used on your own turn (or does it still require you to ready an action to counterspell )?

Also... is the spellcraft check made after both spellcaster act (and had a chance to expend a spell) or is one check made every time the spellcaster act (IE: 2 checks are made every turn).

Can you initiate a second (or more in Epic levels) spell duel with your swift (immediate) action if you don't expend a spell slot? You obviously wouldn't be able to maintain BOTH, but you'd have a slim chance of winning the second one with just the initial check.

 

[Gez]

Yes, that's what I meant, immediate, not swift. (I'm not sure one can ready a swift action, BTW...)

There's only one opposed check per round, and that's why I've synchronised the contestants' turns in the round.

As I've written that draft, you're allowed to initiate more spellduels while maintaining one. I don't remember having seen any generic rules about maintaining concentration on several tasks at the same time, though. Maybe in the EPH, in the section about Psionic Focus... Being able to maintain several spellduels at a time could make an interesting feat.

Good questions!

 

[Gez]

Other opinions and questions?

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think that perhaps you've not thought this through enough. In D&D, actions are the most important currency you have. This is especially true for spellcasters.

This feat basically says that if your foe doesn't kick your ass at spellcraft (ie - is consistently able to beat you by 10 or more), you have a very big chance of shutting the guy out of the fight with a very small investment.

That 20 point margin for "the spellduel continues" is just too big. The power to redirect the spell when you win is probably also too powerful.

There are aspects of this I really like though. Upgrading the flexibility of counterspelling (ie - you only need a spell of the right school, not a higher level spell of the right school). The fact that it's never a 100% certainty of winning. The fact that the potency of countering depends on the level of spell expended.

My alterations to counterspelling would be thus:

First: Reactive counterspell is a core feat that no longer requires improved counterspell. It only works on opponents spells when you can perceive the originator or the effects of the spell. For instance you would be allowed a reactive counterspell against a scry spell if you made your intelligence check to detect the invisible sensor, but it wouldn't work if you failed that check.

Second: The following feats exist

Spell-like counterspell
The character has learnt to counter the natural magical abilities of monsters that function similarly to spells.
prerequisites: none
Benefit: The possessor of this feat may counterspell a spell like ability. Additionally the possessor of this feat may use their spell-like abilities to counter other spellcasters as per the normal counterspelling rules.

Supernatural counterspell
The character has learnt to counter all magic, regardless of form.
Prerequisites: spell-like counterspell
Benefit: The possessor of this feat may counterspell a supernatural ability. Unless otherwise stated, a supernatural ability has a caster level equal to the hit dice of it's user, and a spell level of half the hit dice of it's user. The school of a supernatural ability is determined by the DM.

Improved counterspell
The character has increased his counterspelling mastery
Benefit: The possessor of this feat adds +3 to all caster level checks made to dispel.

Next: Counterspelling mechanics.

A caster must ready an action to counterspell a specific target unless he has the reactive counterspell feat.

A spellcraft check to identify the spell is given as normal. For each of the three standard components (verbal, somatic, material) of the spell that the counterspeller cannot detect, or that is not present, he gets a -5 on the check. Particularly obvious components or foci being used (ie - chanting at a full length mirror worth 1500gp) may warrant a bonus on the check. Note that SLA and SU powers have no components.

If he still wishes to counterspell, the counterspeller must cast a spell that he knows or has prepared. He and the counterspelling target make a caster level check. They each add a modifier equal to the level of the spell expended.

Additionally the counterspeller adds the following modifiers based on the spell that he cast:

Same spell or a spell specifically noted as being a counter to the targeted spell: automatic success, but still roll just in case you win by more than 10. Note that you probably add +2 to this roll from "same descriptor", below.

Different school as spell to be countered (not applied to any spell who's primary function is dispelling): -5

Abjuration: +1

Same descriptor as spell to be countered (once only): +2

If the counterspeller wins, the spell targeted has no effect.

If the counterspeller wins this check by more than 10, then not only does the targeted spell have no effect, but the spell used to counterspell takes immediate effect, as long as it requires only a standard action or less to cast. The counterspeller may choose all the pertinent details of the spell (targets etc) at this time as normal.

 

[Gez]

I think that perhaps you've not thought this through enough. In D&D, actions are the most important currency you have. This is especially true for spellcasters.

Good point. I guess that, since this rule makes Improved Counterspell nonsensical, the Improved Counterspell feat would instead allow to maintain the spellduel as a move action rather than a standard action. Thus allowing a spellcaster to potentially cast a spell (with a successful Concentration check) while maintaining a spellduel. Hmm...

This feat basically says that if your foe doesn't kick your ass at spellcraft (ie - is consistently able to beat you by 10 or more), you have a very big chance of shutting the guy out of the fight with a very small investment.

Remember you can get a good bonus on your Spellcraft check by fueling it with spells. The one with more spells to expend (typically, a BBEG) can afford that more than an alread-depleted PC...

That 20 point margin for "the spellduel continues" is just too big. The power to redirect the spell when you win is probably also too powerful.

I'm not so sure about that, though... I'll think some more on that topic.