Two Cities of Brass?

[Nightfall]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ceasar's Wife. . . .

I don't think you're comprehending any of this -- perhaps it's really just outside your ability to understand the ethical issues involved.

They're the bad guys because they aren't changing the name.

~R

I understand ethics quite well. I think YOU however don't. You cry foul because it seems like they "STOLE" something that didn't belong to them. BUT neither did the ORIGINAL city that Kuntz stole. Nor has Tolkiens heirs taken umbrage at D&D when they put out their "elves" "dwarves" and "halflings" which they have copyrighted. That's an ethical and legal issue but no one talks that much about this.

 

[Pale]

I dunno, man. Necro is part of the White Wolf machine and WW is hardly "little."

You have a misconception. White Wolf prints and sells Necromancer Games products. Clark Peterson is the publisher of Necromancer Games, the buck stops with him.

 

[Pale]

And rpace, you are coming off as extremely condescending in this, perhaps if you left off your insulting one-liners your argument would be seen in a better light.

 

[Nightfall]

You have a misconception. White Wolf prints and sells Necromancer Games products. Clark Peterson is the publisher of Necromancer Games, the buck stops with him.

Pale is correct. WW only controls, (to a small degree) the Scarred Lands, Ravenloft and now Everquest. Necromancer and Malhavoc are independent entities, merely working under the S&SS banner for distribution and printing purposes.

 

[Nightfall]

And rpace, you are coming off as extremely condescending in this, perhaps if you left off your insulting one-liners your argument would be seen in a better light.

Don't worry about it Pale. He can be as condescending as he likes. Just proves to me that some people from the "old days" have a very large chip on their shoulders while others, (like Monte Cook, Clark Peterson, Bill Webb and Chris Pramas) are good DECENT people. Oh and so is Hal Greenberg!

 

[rpace]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ceasar's Wife. . . .

I understand ethics quite well. I think YOU however don't. You cry foul because it seems like they "STOLE" something that didn't belong to them. BUT neither did the ORIGINAL city that Kuntz stole. Nor has Tolkiens heirs taken umbrage at D&D when they put out their "elves" "dwarves" and "halflings" which they have copyrighted. That's an ethical and legal issue but no one talks that much about this.

I'll attempt to disabuse you of your belief that you understand ethics.
Please refer to:
http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=ethics

You seem stalled on the notion that if it isn't illegal it's ethical. You've made absolutely no attempt to debate any of my points. You merely keep restating that the City of Brass is public domain material -- and not even in those terms.

You're discussing ownership and IP rights without even using the proper language, while I'm discussing the right thing to do.

Honestly, it seems like you're having a discussion with someone other than me, even though you're responding to my messages.. I never claimed NG had stolen anything from RJK -- I have repeatedly pointed out they are acting unethically in this matter.

I'm not disputing that NG has pretty broad legal support to pursue publishing City of Brass -- I'm saying it's unethical.

How many more ways can I write this so that it finally sinks in?

The "good guys" don't shoot the bad guy in the back. So, even if RJK was a complete villain in their dealings, what they're doing with CoB is creatively and professionally shooting him in the back.

That's about as simplistic as I can make the argument for you: they're doing something good guys don't do.

. . . . .

And your youth, by the way, is telling in your ignorance of the real legal history between TSR and the Tolkien heirs. Of course, no one talks much about this since it occured way back in the 70s.

~R

 

[baseballfury]

Pale is correct. WW only controls, (to a small degree) the Scarred Lands, Ravenloft and now Everquest. Necromancer and Malhavoc are independent entities, merely working under the S&SS banner for distribution and printing purposes.

Necro and Malhavoc are part of Sword and Sorcery Studios, which is White Wolf. You guys make it sound like having the full weight of White Wolf behind the SSS companies is hardly worth mentioning. I'm sure there are plenty of other d20 companies who wouldn't mind "only" having their products printed, sold, and distributed by a company of WW's size!

I see SSS stuff in Barnes and Noble. Pied Piper, to my knowledge, hasn't released so much as a PDF yet. Saying that Pied Piper and Necro are somehow on the same level is a distortion of reality.

 

[rpace]

And rpace, you are coming off as extremely condescending in this, perhaps if you left off your insulting one-liners your argument would be seen in a better light.

It's hard not to be condescending to anyone whose response to "That's the wrong thing to do" is "Yeah, but they can get away with it".

~R

 

[Nightfall]

The RIGHT thing to do, is also A LEGAL thing to do. Murder is both illegal AND immoral. And yes City of Brass IS public domain SINCE Alll Kuntz work WAS based on MYTH. You however don't seem to grasp such a concept.

"The right thing to do" is to MAKE products that people want, regardless of what you might consider a faux pau(sp)

The good guys DIDN"T shoot anyone in the back. Kuntz did. I, like everyone else, wanted to see SOME kind of version of City of Brass, a city filled with Efreeti that has existed in both D&D AND myths far longer than has been in print. So just because Kuntz feels wounded, and by default you do, because they "didn't do an ethical service" to one man that wrote a little piece of TSR history WHEN he's had the chance to do so many times...and failed. Just because of that, you want to damn Necromancer Games...I find even more petty and unethical than anything else you're written.

I think your problem is you believe too much in the value of ONE man's work over THAT which is the right of the consumer, which is WHAT this business is really about. Creating GOOD solid products for people to enjoy, NOT just yourself. The self-love of the 70s and 80s has to end, if this genre and business is to survive. However you, in your right and zeal to be "ethical" probably can't see much beyond protecting your own butt.

As for my youth, hey you can make as much of an issue as you want. I'm still pretty sure I'm on solid ground considered I did a senior thesis on Tolkien. There was never any mention of him being upset, much less Christopher, (who has been an opponent of many things of his father's works being in the public eye), about TSR using such ideas, or even "stealing them". So please, keep going. I got all night to care. If ever.

 

[Nightfall]

Necro and Malhavoc are part of Sword and Sorcery Studios, which is White Wolf. You guys make it sound like having the full weight of White Wolf behind the SSS companies is hardly worth mentioning. I'm sure there are plenty of other d20 companies who wouldn't mind "only" having their products printed, sold, and distributed by a company of WW's size!

And yet Green Ronin, Mongoose, and others do quite well. I see them in stores as well, Waldenbooks along with my local gaming store.

I see SSS stuff in Barnes and Noble. Pied Piper, to my knowledge, hasn't released so much as a PDF yet. Saying that Pied Piper and Necro are somehow on the same level is a distortion of reality.

No, but then Pied Piper, to my knowledge, hasn't done many prints. I do know Green Ronin and the rest have. Should we say that's unfair because they came in late in the game? I don't think your reasoning is holding much water.