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Two Cities of Brass?

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First Post
Well, one City of Brass is coming from the guys which brought me Tomb of Abysthor, Rappan Athuk and Demons and Devils.

The other is coming from the guy who's brought me the Maze series.

Wonder which I'll buy :rolleyes:


First Post
I am buying the Necromancer Games version. They haven't failed to deliver yet. The only thing they did that I didn't really like was the Maze series.


First Post
Because the City of Brass is drawn from the 1,001 Arabian Nights, anyone can publish a product about it. There's a Magic: The Gathering card based on the concept already. And as long as they're not plagiarizing someone else's copyrighted work, Necromancer is free to do what they will. No one's making anyone else buy it, of course, but there it is:(



First Post
Actually, I plan on getting both since each will be a little different from the other. No controversy here with me. But that might just be me.


First Post
Here's my opinion.

I havent' liked any of Rob's stuff for 3rd edition so far.

I've enjoyed many of Necromancer's products.

I think those two statements should indicate that I'm hoping that Necromancer games comes out with a fantastic sourcebook.

Hell, I hope Rob does too. It'd be nice to enjoy something he does instead of looking over work that clearly isn't following any version of the d20 rules I'm using.


First Post
Well, I'm definitely keen on seeing the Greyhawkish version even if the serial numbers have been filed off.


Lucifer said:
I am buying the Necromancer Games version. They haven't failed to deliver yet. The only thing they did that I didn't really like was the Maze series.
Exactly my thoughts...

But I'm a fan of Rob, so I'll at least look at his as well (though as you, I was not impressed with the Maze series overall..it had it's moments, but they were too few)


I look forward to the D20 version. I think it could be left at that, if both are D20 then I will have both.


Darrin Drader

First Post
This whole thing is such a bizarre situation. I have no experience with Rob Kuntz on a personal level, so I can't say whether I completely trust his version of the story or not. The one thing I can say is that Clark has always treated me with respect, and he's even stepped in as a mediator in one case when I was getting hot under the collar at another D20 professional. The sad thing about that was that it all started over a misunderstanding, and I feel bad for the harsh words I'd said back then.

The correspondance that RK posted seem to start at a middle point rather than a beginning point, and the disagreements seem to be glossed over. It appears that Rob's issues are that he was working without a contract in more than one case, and it seems that Clark was having difficulties getting the Maze series into D20 format. I've done several pieces of work for companies like WotC with Dragon Magazine, Bastion Press, etc. and I've completed projects many times before having contract in hand. Maybe NG was waiting for the finished work before promising money. Maybe they were simply too busy to get them written up. I seriously doubt that a company with their standing and reputation would simply try to get RK's work for free. We've heard one side of the story. I would be interested in hearing the other side. I also find it interesting that the problems seemed to start right around the publication of Necropolis. We all know that Gary and Rob have had their legal differences in the past :shrug:

As for the controversy surrounding the City of Brass, I don't think it is out of line for NG to do a version of it as long as they scrap any of RK's original work that they had been given. If it does use the work he sent them, then I would have a serious problem with their ethics. I can completely understand why they would choose to go forward with this project though. Like they've said, it is based on mythology, it is a staple in classic D&D, and they want to do it.

In addition to this, when RK pulled out of his contract with Necromancer, there were a lot of RK fans disappointed that City of Brass apparently wasn't going to be published, and there were probably an equal number of NG fans that were equally disappointed that NG wasn't going to publish it. If any company has tried to stay true to the first edition feel of D&D and update it to 3rd edition, that would be NG. They started out wanting to do this product, and now they intend to continue forward with it.

So, In NG's defense, they've had good relationships with Gary Gygax, WotC, and other known industry professionals like Mike Mearls, whereas the only real history we know about RK is the lawsuit that happened all those years ago. I find it an interesting coincidence that RK once again finds himself at odds with a publisher.

So, who to believe? I don't really know without more information. Either way, I respect the work of them both and I hope that this doesn't tarnish the reputation of either of them.


Sage of the Scarred Lands
I'm buying it BECAUSE Scott Greene's working on, and with Tome coming out, I couldn't care WHAT the city looks like. It's just a bunch of efreets anyway. I'm sure that they'll change my mind, like they did with Necropolis, but regardless, RK can do what he likes. I'm still a Necro man through and through. Those that want to cry foul, can and will. Me, I just see this as no different than using Death Knights to run a campaign setting. There's plenty of them to go around.


First Post
I dont want to get into this. I think this is all highly inappropriate and am surprised Gene would post here. But please understand a few things:

1. this has nothing to do with Gygax.
2. Rob's issue with a contract is form over function. We had a binding written agreement in place from the beginning of our relationship in the form of a letter of intent. Our subsequent "contract" had EXACTLY the same content as the letter of intent, it just said "Publication Agreement" on the top.
3. We absolutely positively 100% will not use any of the material discussed when Rob and I talked about CoB back when he was on board. I would not use that material as that would be inappropriate.



Sage of the Scarred Lands
Well some people, Clark, aren't as nice as you. :) I should know. Especially considering the time I used "Nsync" and Orcus in the same sentence. (This doesn't apply here though! :) )


First Post
Well said Clark. Things have gotten out of hand about this, but it doesnt surprise ME where this thread came from...
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Eosin the Red

First Post
Holy doodoo.

Could someone be more unprofessional? Private e-mails are private! Even when they are business related.

How come every time RJK is mentioned around here it is about contraversy?


Darrin Drader

First Post
I am tending to agree with Eosin the Red on this one. Though the emails were not particularly damning, I don't find that publicly posting an exchange of emails and the exact wording of them is really appropriate unless it is some large sweeping policy change that affects the public or something that is agreed upon by both parties. It seems that an unfortunate breach of trust has occurred, and the whole incident would best be forgotten.

I'm beginning to think that this thread was started as a slander campaign against NG over a product that someone sees as a potential threat to their own product line. I'm not too keen on that, especially since I'm from the camp that thinks that both Cities of Brass will probably be very good, and I probably will buy both of them.

In fact, if there's a moderator reading this, I would encourage them to close this thread.

Dr. Zauberei

First Post

Wow! I'm a lurker mostly, and don't post often. But after wading through all that stuff geneweigel linked to out of morbid curiousity, all I can do is throw my support (and my dollars) to Necromancer Games.

Every post by Orcus is professional and polite both on this subject matter and every other time I've seen him post. Necromancer Games led by the Demon Lord of the Undead himself has done nothing but put out great product in a professional manner and I expect that to continue.

Most of the communication from RJK in this matter has been highly UNprofessional and bordering on slander (in my less-than-legal opinion). I've never enjoyed Rob's work for the original game or later, but until now I held no disrespect for him personally. With this behavior, that has changed. I certainly will not be supporting any Kuntz products in the future.

This whole thing is a mess, I'd like to thank Orcus and his crew for working so hard on a product they love. And I'd like to reprove Mr. Kuntz for his unprofessionalism, as well as those who have been stirring this flame war (like, the topic poster maybe . . .)


First Post
I feel that I must leap to Gene's defense. This is news. And I don't think that just because he is posting this news here it means that he is trying to start a flame war. Maybe he just feels a need to understand peoples' feelings on this matter. That is what he is asking for.


First Post
I concur. While Gene is "Mr. Controversy", one thread on the subject would definitely have happened on ENWorld sooner or later.

As for opinion - I have one, but since it isn't exactly well informed (all I have is cryptic e-mails, cryptic posts and cryptic rebuttals), I am keeping it to myself. I would encourage other people to do the same.

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Mythological Figures & Maleficent Monsters