D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[Cadence]

And I answered this question earlier in the thread.

Several folks have repeated things for you when you seemed to have missed them.

Would it hurt to repeat it again? Thank you.

 

[Maxperson]

And @Chaosmancer agreed with me on the answer of the question you asked. I have a right to point that out to you.

He gave no good reason for his disagreement. Are Aboleths mortal like Orcs and Dragons? Yes. Do they reproduce like Orcs and Dragons do? Yes. Are they intelligent like Orcs and Dragons? Yes. Do they have feelings like Orcs and Dragons? Yes. His arbitrary declaration that Orcs and Dragons are people, but Aboleths aren't, falls flat.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

He gave no good reason for his disagreement. Are Aboleths mortal like Orcs and Dragons? Yes. Do they reproduce like Orcs and Dragons do? Yes. Are they intelligent like Orcs and Dragons? Yes. Do they have feelings like Orcs and Dragons? Yes. His arbitrary declaration that Orcs and Dragons are people, but Aboleths aren't, falls flat.

Except you're ignoring a few things, and getting some wrong:

1. They're aliens
2. They have psionic enslaving powers, and their empires revolve around this.
3. Everything they've ever learned is passed on to their descendents
4. They're not mortal. When they die they reform again in the Elemental Plane of Fire.
5. Their "feelings" are very much only negative feelings. They don't seem to have good emotions.
6. They don't reproduce like Orcs and Dragons do, they reproduce without a partner. Orcs and dragons reproduce sexually.
7. Their societies aren't based around supporting others of their communities, they're based around evil means.

Aboleths have several things that set them apart from orcs, dragons, and other "monsters", making themselves not people.

Now, give us your definition of people, because you keep dodging it.

 

[Xenonnonex]

Aberrations are utterly alien beings. Abilities do they have drawn from the creatures' alien mind.
Height of absurdity is trying to claim they are people. And a distraction. And irrelevant. To the issue at hand.

 

[Maxperson]

Except you're ignoring a few things, and getting some wrong:

1. They're aliens
2. They have psionic enslaving powers, and their empires revolve around this.
3. Everything they've ever learned is passed on to their descendents
4. They're not mortal. When they die they reform again in the Elemental Plane of Fire.
5. Their "feelings" are very much only negative feelings. They don't seem to have good emotions.
6. They don't reproduce like Orcs and Dragons do, they reproduce without a partner. Orcs and dragons reproduce sexually.
7. Their societies aren't based around supporting others of their communities, they're based around evil means.

Aboleths have several things that set them apart from orcs, dragons, and other "monsters", making themselves not people.

Now, give us your definition of people, because you keep dodging it.

1. Aliens are people, too. There's nothing about the definition of people that @Chaosmancer provided that cannot apply to any intelligent species. If you are going to extend the definition of people past human, then it includes all such species, or else you're just being arbitrary in choosing Orcs, but not Aboleths.

2. Psionicists are people, too. Psionics doesn't remove personhood, nor does enslaving others by the way. It just makes you a bad person.

3. Having a long memory passed down to you doesn't make you not a person.

4. They are mortal as they die. Reincarnation doesn't make you not mortal. It just means you come back after you DIE.

5. Who says they don't have good emotions? You don't know if they experience happiness or gratitude. Are are you saying that being evil makes you not a person? Hell, here in the real world even sociopaths are people.

6. Ahh, so to be a person you have to have sex. Got it.

7. This is entirely irrelevant. Unless you're saying that being evil makes you not a person. Which, by the way, means that evil orc societies makes Orcs not people.

 

[Maxperson]

Aberrations are utterly alien beings. Abilities do they have drawn from the creatures' alien mind.
Height of absurdity is trying to claim they are people. And a distraction. And irrelevant. To the issue at hand.

You're making an arbitrary decision who who is a person and who is not, though. There's absolutely nothing in the definition of "person" that keeps abberations and aliens from being people, too. Once you extend the definition past human, it applies to any intelligent being. Well, the definition did seem to require men and women, so any alien or aberration with genders will do.

 

[Xenonnonex]

You're making an arbitrary decision who who is a person and who is not, though. There's absolutely nothing in the definition of "person" that keeps abberations and aliens from being people, too. Once you extend the definition past human, it applies to any intelligent being. Well, the definition did seem to require men and women, so any alien or aberration with genders will do.

Absurd can be subjective opinions. Yes.
Guess where that comes from. The MM.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

1. Aliens are people, too. There's nothing about the definition of people that @Chaosmancer provided that cannot apply to any intelligent species. If you are going to extend the definition of people past human, then it includes all such species, or else you're just being arbitrary in choosing Orcs, but not Aboleths.

If you seriously believe this, there's nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. At this point, I think you'll just say anything to win/perpetuate the argument.

2. Psionicists are people, too. Psionics doesn't remove personhood, nor does enslaving others by the way. It just makes you a bad person.

Enslaving people psionically while also looking like an obese murder-squid typically doesn't make you a person.

3. Having a long memory passed down to you doesn't make you not a person.

It makes you more alien, which makes you less of a person.

4. They are mortal as they die. Reincarnation doesn't make you not mortal. It just means you come back after you DIE.

You are the only person I know of that thinks that literal immortality doesn't mean that they're immortal. Sure, they can die, but it's more of an annoyance. To people, death normally isn't just annoying. Fiends and other creatures that respawn after death typically aren't considered people.

5. Who says they don't have good emotions? You don't know if they experience happiness or gratitude. Are are you saying that being evil makes you not a person? Hell, here in the real world even sociopaths are people.

In any lore, can you point to something that makes aboleths happy or grateful? No, they're aliens and have different emotions.
Sure, sociopaths are people, but if your lack of emotions makes you murder people, you're generally not considered a person. Serial killers aren't called people, are they? They're not members of our society, they're monsters.

6. Ahh, so to be a person you have to have sex. Got it.

Sex produces offspring that you have emotional connections to. There are no signs of aboleths having emotional connections with their children.

7. This is entirely irrelevant. Unless you're saying that being evil makes you not a person. Which, by the way, means that evil orc societies makes Orcs not people.

It means that they don't have true societies, which is required to be called a person. Honeybees aren't considered people, and they have societies.

 

[Maxperson]

Absurd can be subjective opinions. Yes.
Guess where that comes from. The MM.

I don't even understand that. Can you clarify?

 

[Cadence]

You're making an arbitrary decision who who is a person and who is not, though.

So, what's your definition? Is it just Homo sapiens? Or are some of Dwarves, Elves, Drow, Elves, Half-Orcs, Gnomes, Orcs, Androids, Vulcans, Klingons, Goblin PCs, all Goblins, also persons?

There's absolutely nothing in the definition of "person" that keeps abberations and aliens from being people, too. Once you extend the definition past human, it applies to any intelligent being.

You mean by Chaosmancer's defintion? Presumably one could define Person to be synonymous with the MM use of Humanoid (not monstrous humanoid in previous editoins, not aberrations, not undead, not anything else).

Well, the definition did seem to require men and women, so any alien or aberration with genders will do.

I'm assuming, that just as in real humans, it would be determined after brief discussion that gender isn't required for person hood.