Two Weapon Fighting

[kkoie]

actually, unless I'm mistaken, ambidexterity is going to be dropped as a feat. In the other systems like d20modern, they don't have ambidexterity, two weapon fighting has the benefits of ambidexterity already incorrporated within it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Which is an OK thing.

I, myself, don't mind the Improved Ambidex idea...a -2 penalty isn't that big of a penalty, after all. I would slap some hefty prereqs on it, but I think it's mechanically sound.

Also, there's nothin' wrong with wielding two medium weapons, really. ^_^ It should take a few more feats (lessee, after Imrpoved Ambidex, maybe something like Strong Off Hand to be able to use a medium weapon with a -2/-2. And then a further feat to negate those penalties). Sounds basically like the guy can spend his entire career of feats working up the chain for two-wepaon fighting.

 

[Datt]

There is no feat in any official WOTC book that I know of that allows you to completely reduce the penalty. Believe I have searched them all high and low as I fight with two battle axes.

From what I have heard both Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon fighting will be replaced with one feat called Duel Wield in 3.5. Now this could just be a rumor or it could be reality. We will have to just wait and see.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

I'm in agreement with Black_Swan (well, not the "if it's in the book it can be done" part):

4 feats and the loss of (important!) AC from a shield is reasonable drawback. [This sounds a lot like something from that Swashbuckler book - if it is, note that not all those feats are appropriate for a "standard" D&D campaign.]

Same here. In D&D two weapon fighting is NOT worth -2 to hit, two feats, losing shield bonus, plus having to find 2 magic weapons, etc. All the games i've played in made Ambidex and TWF one feat, and it still sucks unless you have Sneak Attack dice.

In a modern game it's almost worth 2 feats because you can use 2 light weapons (guns) to do 1d12 or so damage in each hand. Even then its a wash IMO because you aren't getting STR bonus to damage.

If you think your player with TWF is bad its obvious you haven't seen what a sword and board or even a two-handed fighter can do. Instead of 'style' feats they have feats that DO something in combat, like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specilaize, Power Attack and Cleave. You wouldn't be able to hit the guy with the magic large shield and the monsters likely won't last long enough to hit the two-hander back.

 

[Chauzu]

Sure, sounds fine to me.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Same here. In D&D two weapon fighting is NOT worth -2 to hit, two feats, losing shield bonus, plus having to find 2 magic weapons, etc. All the games i've played in made Ambidex and TWF one feat, and it still sucks unless you have Sneak Attack dice.

In a modern game it's almost worth 2 feats because you can use 2 light weapons (guns) to do 1d12 or so damage in each hand. Even then its a wash IMO because you aren't getting STR bonus to damage.

If you think your player with TWF is bad its obvious you haven't seen what a sword and board or even a two-handed fighter can do. Instead of 'style' feats they have feats that DO something in combat, like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specilaize, Power Attack and Cleave. You wouldn't be able to hit the guy with the magic large shield and the monsters likely won't last long enough to hit the two-hander back.

He gets three attacks per round 2 of them at +11 to hit. He has taken the twin swords style which gives him a +2 bonus in melee. I know its not as good as a shield since it doesnt work against missle weapons but in melee it does equal a large shield in melee.


Also I am lost over how you think a greatsword does more damage. Lets assume both fighters hit with their attacks and compare.

A greatsword wielded by a fighter with 14 strength and having weapon specialization will do 1D12+5 for an average of 11.5 points of damage. We will assume he is 4th level with only one attack.

A guy wielding a double sword fully proficient will do 1D8+2 and 1D8+1 damage. If he also picks up weapon specialization then that becomes 1D8+4 and 1D8+3. This is an average of either 12 or 16 points of damage per round.

Furthermore the twin weapon guy has twice the chance to inflict criticals and neither one of them can use a shield so the twin sword guy can pick up the twin sword style feat from FRCS and have a better AC.

 

[Hawkshere]

Anyone looking to use or tinker with two-weapon fighting needs to read Guy Fullerton's Analysis of Attacking with Two Weapons.

Very informative.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

He gets three attacks per round 2 of them at +11 to hit. He has taken the twin swords style which gives him a +2 bonus in melee. I know its not as good as a shield since it doesnt work against missle weapons but in melee it does equal a large shield in melee.

At the cost of yet another feat, and a completely crappy one at that. There is a reason Twin Sword Style is called the "Two Point Expertise". Sorry but it sounds that your player has taken some of the weakest feats in the game in supporting his roleplaying style, you can't still can't deal with him being a decent fighter, and now you are trying to nerf him instead of dealing with it. And you didn't even read my last paragragh apparently. There are plenty of ways to create challenges for a fighter of ANY level, like maybe a kobold sorcerer or two with Charm/Hold? If you keep throwing a fighter in situations where fighters are king, of course he's gonna lay smack.

You wanted other DM opinions, fine. Sure, introducing feats that negate TWF penalties completely are fine. You could even do this already if you look at whats available. Weapon Focus: Double Sword gives a +1 to hit (and is considered underpowered), so I can't see a feat that gives +2 when TWF to be so bad. Exotic Weapon Prof lets you up the damage of a medium weapon at no decrease to hit (a d8 to a d10), so I see no problem in a feat that lets you wield 2 medium weapons with no further penalty. Mechanically they are identical, they both increase damage one die at no attack cost for one feat, EXCEPT the TWF feats have the caveat that you must be using two weapons. In effect this makes these feats weaker because the players options become much more limited.

And he still won't be as good as a single weapon focused character, which is how you said you wanted it. A figher with greataxe can have Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus, Weapon Speacialize, Expertise, for the same investment as your TWFighter. That means he can have the same AC, same attack bonus, and still get another +1 to hit, +2 damage, as many attacks as the TWFighter (with Cleave), AND has the option of making himself unhittable with Expertise if he needs it OR doing upwards of 50-100 damage on low AC critter with Power Attack.

The rest of my opinion is that DM's who need to nerf their players to keep control need some serious help DMing. Players work hard to gain levels, feats, spells. To do all that and then have their characters crushed because of inept DMing verges on cruel. Why even give out XP if you can't handle mid-high level PC's? Keep them at 2nd level permanantly. I don't wanna knock your DM style, but thats what it sounds like from what you've told us. Maybe there is a reason you aren't balancing the characters fighting capability with Rust Monsters, Incorpreal undead, poison, traps, WILL save spells, Touch Attack spells/Tanglefoot bags, Roleplaying encounters, Monks with Sunder, cities where weapons are illiegal to carry, or any of the hundred other common scenarios where BAB doesn't matter. If so i apologize, but i can't see it.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

Heh, your example is so flawed it funny First you assume that the TW guy hits both times, at his lower BAB. You also assume that they have a 14 Str? As a primary fighter? I've never seen that unless its a ranger who needs Dex because of crappy AC. Also at low levels can be marginaly better for low STR fighters because they have 2 rolls to get the 19-20 they need to hit. I'll take the 18 STR fighter with Cleave any day though.

Thanks for the link Hawkshere, lost mine. Also suggest you search here or at the WotC min/max boards for a good dozen analysis's of TWF. Oh, and I commend your player for choosing a very cool RP fighting style over dealing more damage.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Want some cheese with that whiny attitude?

Gee, you slap a guy around with a wand of enervation and suddenly he rounds acting like you inserted that wand up where the sun doesnt shine on him.