UA : Individual summoning lists

[BigRedRod]

UA lists a numbers of variants which can be applied to the summoning spells. One of these that caught my fancy was giving each caster an individual list. For each summoning spell he leans he gains a single type of creature he can summon with that spell, then for each spellcaster level he gains he gains a single addition creature he can summon for any one spell.

Now this drastically cuts the power of the spells, which is an unwanted sideffect of something I'm trying to do to tie the mechanics slightly more to the world I had in mind.

UA fails to list any mehtods (which I can see) of restoring the balance, so I'm up for suggestions. I was entertaining the idea of being able to summon each existing creature with an extra HD per spellcasting level gained since it was added to the summoning list.

Hmmm, I get the feeling that I just managed to fail to explain that in any comprehensible way. If so, I'll edit when I get back this afternoon

 

[Li Shenron]

A complicated matter.

The standard spells have a fixed list of creatures (apporximately) balanced by CR, which is a thing to remember. If you increase the creature HD, after a while the SM I spell can become better than the standard SM II and next ones.

The idea of individual lists is great IMHO, and should have been enforced SINCE THE START by the PHB. The easiest example would be that a LG caster would like to summon archons or lawful celestials only (or mostly), while a CE would summon stuff from the Abyss.

One new creature per caster level (even if you count levels only AFTER you learned the spell) means actually MORE VERSATILE spells after a while, as long as you can choose the creatures freely, because only the "central" spells of the SM series have many options, but the creatures are not a terrific mix of abilities. This is especially true for divine casters who have their list cut a little by the alignment factor.

So in brief there are several variables to consider:
- that the CR of summoned creature doesn't get too high
- that the number of possible creatures doesn't increase over the core spell lists
- that the system isn't too complicated
I mention the last because since the # of creatures depend on WHEN you learned the spell, if you start a campaign at higher level you need to backtrack when every spell was learned.

To make it more simple, you may just consider a straight and simple "1 creature per X caster levels", with X=3 for example. This way has the other problem that a higher caster who learns the spell learns immediately more that 1 creature, which isn't that nice (but it's still less than the core).

 

[BigRedRod]

One new creature per caster level (even if you count levels only AFTER you learned the spell) means actually MORE VERSATILE spells after a while

Yes, they gain a little back, but still in comparrison to the standard power level of the summon spells they are nothing.

e.g. a 3rd level Caster with both Summon Monster I and II, has only a choice of three monster types
One from the second list, and two from the original

Compare this to the standard design granting the caster instant access to any monster from the printed lists and anything else of similar power level which they can convince their DM of


I understand that granting HD growth will eventually cause these spells to become more powerful. So that the same third level character will have access to one I rank creature with +2HD, one rank I creature with +1HD and one rank II creature.

The problem is giving the spells enough of a boost to make them worthwhile while at the same time keeping the mechanic simple and preventing a 1st level spell (or a higher level spell creating multiple rank I monsters) from being the answer to every situation.

I Don't think a few extra HD will cause that much of an issue, the CR and ability gap between summoning ranks grows in a non-linear manner (and rightly so). But perhaps the HD grwoth should be capped at some point in order to avoid abusive mechanics

 

[drnuncheon]

Have the spell automatically allow communication with the summoned creatures (automatically allowing you to order them to do things other than attack).

J

 

[IndyPendant]

Have the spell automatically allow communication with the summoned creatures (automatically allowing you to order them to do things other than attack).

That. Is. Just. Perfect! *Yoink*

I'm going to run this past my players. If they don't grumble too much I'm going to houserule this in. I *hate* summons because there's so many different types to keep track of...

 

[BigRedRod]

Have the spell automatically allow communication with the summoned creatures (automatically allowing you to order them to do things other than attack).

J

Communication isn't usually much of an issue with summoned creatures. A typical wizard starts with a great enough spread of languages to share a common language with most extra-planar creatures

 

[BigRedRod]

As much as I don't like bumping, I really could do with more insights in to this issue.

Damn UA for including so many variants with no thought to balance!

 

[Rackhir]

Don't tie the creature advancement into caster level, tie it into the summon monster spell level. You can keep the additional types of creatures per level, that won't hurt anything, but you might want to make the additional creature types dependent on research or training. Another thought is to incorporate some "Pokemon" style elements, where you actually summon specific individual creatures. This could make additional creatures dependent on finding and binding the creatures. The DMG has some suggestions for rules along this line.

A last suggestion would be to make the new creatures dependent on advancing and then crossbreeding the creatures. In a Turn based strategy game I played the way you got new giant robots was to -
a) Your GRs got xp for killing enemy units. This could advance them to a point.
b) After advancing a GR so far, you could then trade it in for a new better unit that could advance.
c) If you had two of the right GR you could "Breed" them to get a new type of GR, which could then be advanced.

 

[Twowolves]

I don't know if this helps, but here goes anyway.

For arcane casters, the number of creatures on your list equals your ranks in Knowledge/Planes minus the spell level, ie: Know/Planes at rank 5 gives you 4 cratures on your Summon Monster I list, 3 for SM II, 2 for SMI II, and 1 for SM IV.

For divine casters, use Knowledge/Religion instead.

Rationale: as a cleric learns more and more about his church's doctrine, he discovers the truenames of allies used by his deity for summoning purposes; wizards learn the secret names of summonable creatures as he studies the history/composition/whatever of the planes.

Also, IMC, wizards can summon creatures modified with elemental templates, clerics can summon creatures modified with the alignment templates (including axiomatic and anarchic). Both can summon the generic "outsiders". CR is controlled by a formula equating spell level with a cap on CR summonable.

Hope that helps.

Twowolves Howling

 

[SteelDraco]

Twowolves, what was the formula you used for that? I'm curious as to what you think would work well for summoning, particularly at higher levels.

For the first few levels, the CR seems to be roughly one less than the spell level, but that starts to break down at about 4th level spells, when summoning a CR 3 creature to fight your CR 7-9 opponents just isn't going to help that much.

I've used individual summoning lists several times in the past. A LG dwarven war cleric could summon celestial dwarves with class levels (think Eihrenar (sp?) from Valhalla). The elementalist of fire and earth had a list of magma-related critters he could summon. The priest of the goddess of illusion had a list of mist and illusion-related critters, including a bodiless spirit that could enter an illusion and let it act on its own and inflict real damage. I had a lot of fun writing up those summoning lists, actually. They didn't have as much variety as the general PHB lists, which I compensated by making the critters more powerful.