cptg1481
First Post
OK, so call me dense or whatever, but I am very confused right now about Effective Character Level, Class level and Level Adjustments with regards to Monster Classes and in particular as it pertains to the Mind Flayer.
Definitions and Other Data;
Class Level - are levels in one or more character classes. (Summarized from, SS PG 5)
Character Level – When a creature’s description refers to a character level, add any class levels it has to the base creatures HD to determine the character level. This is not the same as ECL (see below), which also includes level adjustment. The creature’s base save and base attack bonuses are based upon its character level. Thus a good measure of its effectiveness when adventuring. (SS PG 5)
ECL - the sum of a creatures level adjustment, hit dice and its class levels. Use character level for all game functions except awarding experience, determining starting equipment and how much experience a character needs to gain a new level. (Summarized from, SS PG 5)
Level Adjustment – a number added to a creature’s hit dice, and class levels to determine the level of character to which it would be equivalent as a PC. (Summarized from, SS PG 6)
Monster Class – the only way to take a level of a monster class is to be a monster of that type. An alternative to the Advancement system in the MM this allows players use Table 2-5: Experience and Level-Dependant Benefits from Chapter 2 (of SS)*. The racial abilities of the creature are simply distributed over a number of levels equal to a fully developed monster’s ECL. (Summarized from, SS PG’s 25-28)
“When using these rules (Chapter 3 SS)* to create a character with one or more levels in a monster class, you can ignore level adjustment. This is replaced by your characters class level” (from, SS PG 25)
Mind flayer – ECL 15, 8 racial HD, a Level Adjustment +7, and is a CR 8 encounter, “…The choice for Mind Flayer advancement is mostly moot unless the campaign extends itself to epic levels beyond 20th….” (Summarized from, SS PG 185)
In the most recent Dragon #310 – (From the SAGE page 99)
Question: A player of mine wants to create a Minotaur character. The average party level is 15 he says he can make a 1st level barbarian/14th level fighter Minotaur and be equal to the other player characters. I say he can only make a 7th level character (say 1 barbarian level and 6 fighter levels) because of the Minotaur’s ECL of 8 (8 minotaur + 1 barbarian + 6 fighter = 15th level) who’s right?
Answer: You are on the right track. You’ve figured out the right number of class levels the character can have but a Minotaur has 6 racial hit dice and a +2 level adjustment. Your example minotaur character does have an ECL of 15 (6HD, 7 class levels, and a +2 level adjustment), but it is a 13th level character with skill points, base saves, feats, ability score increases as a 13th level character. The Minotaur character starts with 15th level equipment, however, and earns experience as a 15th level character.
MY QUESTIONS:
1. Is a monster class level equal to a class level?
2. Does the player in question simply advance in monster levels just like a PC of the same level?
- I mean is it simply 1000K EXP to 2nd, 3000 to 3rd, 66000 to 12th and so on…or does the Level Adjustment come in there too?
- Does the level adjustment come into play anywhere before 15th level or is it figured in?
3. Does the mind flayer get new skills, feats and ability score increases based upon his hit dice or when he gains each monster level?
4. Based on the information above (the data not my questions) if my mind flayer PC has 66500 EXP to make him a 12th level
- What is his monster class level?
- What is his character level? (The basis of his skill points, base saves, feats, ability score increases)
- What is his ECL right now? (Based upon the MIND FLAYER monster class on PG 185-86 of SS)
- What is his class level?
5. According to the MIND FLAYER monster class level breakdown in SS (PG 186) and the class abilities he gets SR equal to 10 + class level.
- What is the SR of my mind flayer PC?
I am thoroughly confused, please help me anyone.
If he advances his mind flayer according exactly like a PC where he gets skill points, base saves, feats, ability score increases at each monster level instead of “hit dice” in the end when he reaches “mind flayer maturity” 7 levels more powerful than a mind flayer out of the MM.
My answers to some of my own questions:
Does the mind flayer get new skills, feats and ability score increases based upon his hit dice or when he gains each monster level?
Each HD
4. Based on the information above (the data not my questions) if my mind flayer PC has 66500 EXP to make him a 12th level
- What is his monster class level?
12
- What is his character level? (The basis of his skill points, base saves, feats, ability score increases)
I think its just 6 but who knows that’s why I asked
The rest…well, I am confused….
* Added for clarification
Definitions and Other Data;
Class Level - are levels in one or more character classes. (Summarized from, SS PG 5)
Character Level – When a creature’s description refers to a character level, add any class levels it has to the base creatures HD to determine the character level. This is not the same as ECL (see below), which also includes level adjustment. The creature’s base save and base attack bonuses are based upon its character level. Thus a good measure of its effectiveness when adventuring. (SS PG 5)
ECL - the sum of a creatures level adjustment, hit dice and its class levels. Use character level for all game functions except awarding experience, determining starting equipment and how much experience a character needs to gain a new level. (Summarized from, SS PG 5)
Level Adjustment – a number added to a creature’s hit dice, and class levels to determine the level of character to which it would be equivalent as a PC. (Summarized from, SS PG 6)
Monster Class – the only way to take a level of a monster class is to be a monster of that type. An alternative to the Advancement system in the MM this allows players use Table 2-5: Experience and Level-Dependant Benefits from Chapter 2 (of SS)*. The racial abilities of the creature are simply distributed over a number of levels equal to a fully developed monster’s ECL. (Summarized from, SS PG’s 25-28)
“When using these rules (Chapter 3 SS)* to create a character with one or more levels in a monster class, you can ignore level adjustment. This is replaced by your characters class level” (from, SS PG 25)
Mind flayer – ECL 15, 8 racial HD, a Level Adjustment +7, and is a CR 8 encounter, “…The choice for Mind Flayer advancement is mostly moot unless the campaign extends itself to epic levels beyond 20th….” (Summarized from, SS PG 185)
In the most recent Dragon #310 – (From the SAGE page 99)
Question: A player of mine wants to create a Minotaur character. The average party level is 15 he says he can make a 1st level barbarian/14th level fighter Minotaur and be equal to the other player characters. I say he can only make a 7th level character (say 1 barbarian level and 6 fighter levels) because of the Minotaur’s ECL of 8 (8 minotaur + 1 barbarian + 6 fighter = 15th level) who’s right?
Answer: You are on the right track. You’ve figured out the right number of class levels the character can have but a Minotaur has 6 racial hit dice and a +2 level adjustment. Your example minotaur character does have an ECL of 15 (6HD, 7 class levels, and a +2 level adjustment), but it is a 13th level character with skill points, base saves, feats, ability score increases as a 13th level character. The Minotaur character starts with 15th level equipment, however, and earns experience as a 15th level character.
MY QUESTIONS:
1. Is a monster class level equal to a class level?
2. Does the player in question simply advance in monster levels just like a PC of the same level?
- I mean is it simply 1000K EXP to 2nd, 3000 to 3rd, 66000 to 12th and so on…or does the Level Adjustment come in there too?
- Does the level adjustment come into play anywhere before 15th level or is it figured in?
3. Does the mind flayer get new skills, feats and ability score increases based upon his hit dice or when he gains each monster level?
4. Based on the information above (the data not my questions) if my mind flayer PC has 66500 EXP to make him a 12th level
- What is his monster class level?
- What is his character level? (The basis of his skill points, base saves, feats, ability score increases)
- What is his ECL right now? (Based upon the MIND FLAYER monster class on PG 185-86 of SS)
- What is his class level?
5. According to the MIND FLAYER monster class level breakdown in SS (PG 186) and the class abilities he gets SR equal to 10 + class level.
- What is the SR of my mind flayer PC?
I am thoroughly confused, please help me anyone.
If he advances his mind flayer according exactly like a PC where he gets skill points, base saves, feats, ability score increases at each monster level instead of “hit dice” in the end when he reaches “mind flayer maturity” 7 levels more powerful than a mind flayer out of the MM.
My answers to some of my own questions:
Does the mind flayer get new skills, feats and ability score increases based upon his hit dice or when he gains each monster level?
Each HD
4. Based on the information above (the data not my questions) if my mind flayer PC has 66500 EXP to make him a 12th level
- What is his monster class level?
12
- What is his character level? (The basis of his skill points, base saves, feats, ability score increases)
I think its just 6 but who knows that’s why I asked
The rest…well, I am confused….
* Added for clarification