D&D 5E (2014) Ultimate Barbarian....should I multiclass?

[fewilcox]

Our Barbarian during Encounters last season took a couple levels of Druid to get truly absurd amounts of HP.

 

[Mephista]

There seem to be some misconceptions floating around. The level 20 capstone is not meant to be a huge jump in power. The big jump in power is supposed to be at level 17, give or take one.

The game is set up to have four tiers. 1-4 are the apprentice levels, 5-10 are the heroic, 11-16 are whatever-is-between-hero-and-epic, and 17+ are considered the epic levels. At each milestone (5, 11, 17) there is a marked jump in power; well, sometimes it varies by a level up or down, but generally its on those levels. 20 is not a level with a marked jump in power, so that someone who's 18, and someone who's 20, are still roughly on the same power level. One could argue that past level 20, with epic boons, is another tier of power, given what some of those can do (extra level 9 spells, etc), but level 20 is still not that jump.


What this also means is that multi-classing is best when done after the highest milestone your game will reach. If your game is going to 20, then generally you are best off multiclassing after hitting the barbarian's level 17 milestone, otherwise you'll be operating at less power than anyone else at 17. After that level 17 boost? It makes little difference if you multiclass or not. If your game is going to end at level 15 or so, then anything past level 11 can be almost anything. 2 levels of Fighter and 2 of Rogue on top of Barbarian 5 is generally better than Barbarian 9, but 3 Fighter, 3 Rogue, Barbarian 5 is generally worse than Barbarian 11.

There are a couple exceptions to the rule (character level growth on eldritch blast for one, eldritch knight-wiz for another), but its generally its best to either:
1) dip one level at char gen for needed proficiencies, then level your main class, and/or
2) wait until the highest milestone you'll reach in the game, then multiclass to heart's content.

Remember, level 20 theory builds are nice, but remember you have to stay alive through all these to get to that level 20, so deciding when to multiclass is just as critically important as the decision to multiclass at all.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

There seem to be some misconceptions floating around. The level 20 capstone is not meant to be a huge jump in power. The big jump in power is supposed to be at level 17, give or take one.

Maybe for some classes that would be true (Ranger, Sorcerer, arguably Wizard). For other classes (Druid, Fighter, arguably Barbarian and Monk) the capstone is far more attractive than the level 17-18 power.

Look at the actual capstones involved rather than generalizing from the "tier" model.

 

[Mephista]

Maybe for some classes that would be true (Ranger, Sorcerer, arguably Wizard). For other classes (Druid, Fighter, arguably Barbarian and Monk) the capstone is far more attractive than the level 17-18 power.

Look at the actual capstones involved rather than generalizing from the "tier" model.

I have. Druid is highly overrated as an end game mechanic - CR 6 critters aren't sticky, and the damage is often laughable against the monsters you'll be facing. A single epic level monster with a good Hold Person cast, or a Power Word, against a CR 6 critter's stats? Dead. And, yes, level 20 characters will face that danger. Furthermore, its only good if we look at it from the perspective of the Moon Druid. Land, and every other subclass from now on, don't care. This is more of a white room theory problem than an actual game problem - any DM in a game can deal with it in a wide variety of ways. Like the idea of the flying carpet archer kiting the Tarrasque easily.


Monk's ki recharge isn't that different of a capstone from the spellcasters that everyone dismisses; it just happens to work out better due to the nature of the class. Barbarian - some extra accuracy, damage, and hp; an effective +2 bonus is nice, but not something outrageously good at a level where you've found several Tomes that do the same thing. Or have a Giant's Belt.

Fighter - actually, probably should be swapped with the level 17 feature. Its more consistant with how others level. I'll admit to one outlier out of 12, with the caveat that the level 17 feature is underpowered for the Fighter under the new system.

Ranger - actually works really well. By level 20, I've gotten a good idea of who the big bads in the game are, and have specialized appropriately. We ran it as applying after the roll, not before, so its effectively turning a miss into a hit a turn. If you don't need it, then it adds a bit of damage so you don't miss anything.



I could go on. With the sole exception of the Fighter, the capstones really aren't anything great.

 

[Cernor]

I think 3 levels of fighter is worth it, unless you know the game is going to 20.

Fighting style, action surge, and either extra AC (shield spell from Eldritch knight), more criticals (champion), or extra burst damage (battle master) is worth it.

The biggest issue of an EK/barbarian is that you can't cast spells while raging... So Shield wouldn't be quite so useful. However, with Action surge and expanded critical range, Champion synergizes extremely well after you get brutal critical.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I have. Druid is highly overrated as an end game mechanic - CR 6 critters aren't sticky, and the damage is often laughable against the monsters you'll be facing. A single epic level monster with a good Hold Person cast, or a Power Word, against a CR 6 critter's stats? Dead. And, yes, level 20 characters will face that danger. Furthermore, its only good if we look at it from the perspective of the Moon Druid. Land, and every other subclass from now on, don't care. This is more of a white room theory problem than an actual game problem - any DM in a game can deal with it in a wide variety of ways. Like the idea of the flying carpet archer kiting the Tarrasque easily.

For the sake of brevity, let's zero in on your first attempt, the Moon Druid. You've claimed that the capstones are worse than the level 17-18 powers. I gave druids as a counterexample. You're trying to refute that counterexample by observing that the capstone isn't that great against "the creatures you'll be facing" and isn't broken. I agree with that observation--it's not broken--but here's the thing: the capstone (unlimited wild shaping) is undeniably better than the level 18 feature (beast spells), which was the claim the counterexample is intended to refute. At level 20, you can freely turn into a bird to go spying, land and switch to a wolf if an eagle tries to eat you (or just become an air elemental and scare it away), turn into an earth elemental to burrow underground, kill a hundred orcs without a sweat due to Onion Druid-ing, and then join a 1st level party in the pose of the ranger's pet mongoose. It completely removes the resource constraint on (admit it!) one of the funnest abilities in the game. At 18th level, the druid won't even attempt to spy in bird form because he's saving wildshaping for air elemental form for emergencies instead... and he can't afford to burn two uses on Earth Elemental to burrow underneath a structure either. In what way is Beast Spells half as transformative as unlimited wildshaping via Archdruid?

Edit: or were you thinking more of 9th level spell access at 17th level? True Polymorph/Foresight/etc.? That stuff is nice, about as nice as Archdruid in a completely different way... but it's not bigger than Archdruid, nor better. It's just different.

 

[Mephista]

For the sake of brevity, let's zero in on your first attempt, the Moon Druid. You've claimed that the capstones are worse than the level 17-18 powers. I gave druids as a counterexample. You're trying to refute that counterexample by observing that the capstone isn't that great against "the creatures you'll be facing" and isn't broken. I agree with that observation--it's not broken--but here's the thing: the capstone (unlimited wild shaping) is undeniably better than the level 18 feature (beast spells), which was the claim the counterexample is intended to refute. At level 20, you can freely turn into a bird to go spying, land and switch to a wolf if an eagle tries to eat you (or just become an air elemental and scare it away), turn into an earth elemental to burrow underground, kill a hundred orcs without a sweat due to Onion Druid-ing, and then join a 1st level party in the pose of the ranger's pet mongoose. It completely removes the resource constraint on (admit it!) one of the funnest abilities in the game. At 18th level, the druid won't even attempt to spy in bird form because he's saving wildshaping for air elemental form for emergencies instead... and he can't afford to burn two uses on Earth Elemental to burrow underneath a structure either. In what way is Beast Spells half as transformative as unlimited wildshaping via Archdruid?

Okay, setting aside that overpowered was a goalpost move (its admittedly a knee jerk response at this point), the only reason people think that the Archdruid is really good is due effective infinite THP generation. However, for a level 20 character, playing as a CR 5 critter when facing against CR 20+ threats, it is annoying. Your attacks are weak, your saves are weak, and you're physically ineffective beyond being an ignorable HP buffer.

If not for the fact you have access to spells in wildshape form now, you would have zero threat at this point in the game.

Oh, and do you know who else can do all the above stuff you listed? Any epic level spellcaster through use of polymorphs. All the above, while a good joke, is just messing around and having fun. Flavorful stuff is fun, but hardly powerful; cantrips like Prestidigitation are fun, but no one will say they're powerful. And, yes, we're still talking power.

And it still doesn't touch on the fact that the capstone is only good for Moon Druids. No one even thinks twice about it with a Land Circle, or likely any future non-shifting subclass.

Edit: or were you thinking more of 9th level spell access at 17th level? True Polymorph/Foresight/etc.? That stuff is nice, about as nice as Archdruid in a completely different way... but it's not bigger than Archdruid, nor better. It's just different.

Yes, the 9th level spells are the druid epic benefit. And, yes, they're more powerful. Fun is not a measurement. If you want to mess around and feign being someone lower level's pet, then you don't need a level 20 ability to do it. If you want to kill a 100 orcs because, then you don't need to be a level 20 character. To scare a hawk? A level 1 character can do it.

 

[famousringo]

A level 20 cleric can phone his buddy the god and his buddy always picks up as long as the cleric hasn't been too needy lately.

Sorry, you can't convince me that (some) capstones aren't meant to be really powerful. A barbarian that hits 20 gets +2 hit and damage, +2 AC, 50 odd hit points and a +2 bonus to saves and checks made with 1/3 of the stats in the game. That is absolutely comparable to going up a tier (10 odd HP, +1 to hit, +1 to proficient saves and checks, +1 attack). If it wasn't meant to be powerful, then it's a failure of design.

 

[jgsugden]

The 20th level Capstone is a nice coda, but it means little as you're going to be using it for only a few sessions before the game ends - if you ever get there. And, the chance you find a belt of Giant Strength that matches or exceeds that 24 strength is not something to ignore.

Regardless, if you want to be the ultimate melee beast, barbarian is not the way to go. Barbarian is actually one of the least effective classes for total damage potential. You're better off with a ranger, fighter or paladin. All three can outclass the barbarian. The ultimate melee build IMHO, is Ranger 5, then Fighter 4, then Rogue 11. You can do a sick amount of damage per turn with that combination without using up any depleting resources like spells or action surge - which can really take you over the top.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Okay, setting aside that overpowered was a goalpost move (its admittedly a knee jerk response at this point), the only reason people think that the Archdruid is really good is due effective infinite THP generation.

No it isn't the only reason. That's part of it, but unlimited anything is just plain cool. Change the monk capstone to unlimited ki and see how much more attractive it is to everyone. Brust's Cool Theory of Literature applies here of course.

All literature consists of whatever the writer thinks is cool. The reader will like the book to the degree that he agrees with the writer about what's cool. And that works all the way from the external trappings to the level of metaphor, subtext, and the way one uses words. In other words, I happen not to think that full-plate armor and great big honking greatswords are cool. I don't like 'em. I like cloaks and rapiers. So I write stories with a lot of cloaks and rapiers in 'em, 'cause that's cool. Guys who like military hardware, who think advanced military hardware is cool, are not gonna jump all over my books, because they have other ideas about what's cool.

Obviously you personally don't find cool turning into a chipmunk whenever you want, but some people do.

Oh, and do you know who else can do all the above stuff you listed? Any epic level spellcaster through use of polymorphs.

Only if he's willing to drop his mental scores down to the garbage range, unlike a wildshaped druid--and return to human form in between shapes (maybe not so feasible while you're in the air), and spend a 4th level spell slot every single hour, and have zero access to elemental forms (earth elemental burrowing, air elemental flying). The differences add up. You know what? I'm just going to go ahead and say, "No, they can't."

When you say "fun is not a measurement," are you just trying to point out that fun can't be quantified (not a metric), or are you saying doesn't provide utility? If the former I'll just point out that you don't need a metric in order to do a cost-benefit tradeoff. You can just directly compare the fun of Archdruid to the fun of Beast Spells + Action Surge or whatever else you were going to buy with those two levels. If the latter, I'll strenuously disagree. Fun is the only utility measure worth anything in an RPG. I do acknowledge that different people have different things they find fun, but for example DPR is only notable because it is 1.) easily measured, 2.) enables things that some people find fun (blasting big monsters to death). If you find one Action Surge per short rest more fun than unlimited wildshaping and an extra 6th/7th level spell, knock yourself out with Druid 18/Fighter 2... but don't expect everyone else to share your tastes. Druid 20 is one of the best capstones out there.