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Ultimate Combat Playtest: Gunslinger, Ninja, Samurai

pawsplay

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In case you hadn't heard, the playtest PDF is available. Download it!

Let me preface my comments first by saying that, as has come to be expected from Paizo, the classes set forth with solid design principles and are pretty consistent with other designs. Thus, most of what I have to say is going to take the form of criticism. I don't feel the need to say, "Yeah, Paizo sure nailed another Cavalier Order" so I won't, but I don't want to give the impression my thoughts are intended as a slam.

The Gunslinger: I'm a little perplexed where this one is going to fit into most campaigns, but it's an intriguing and useful idea if you do want one. "Grit" is a cute ability name, but "grit user" is one of those horrible phrases invented by RPG writers who don't spend enough time around humans. "Grit user," really? I have a huge complaint here. The writeup includes firearm rules that state they are there so you can play the gunslinger, but are final and not open to discussion. The problem is that those rules are pretty crappy. Firearms are treated as touch attacks within the first range increment, which is stupid, as that implies that bullets easily penetrate plate armor or the skin of a steel or stone construct. Another issue I have is that the rules define firearms as an Exotic Weapon Proficiency but then go on to state that they don't fuction as discrete proficiencies after all. Why not simply define a new category of weapons, firearm weapons, and say the gunslinger is proficient in all of them? Is there a reason members of other classes need proficiency with all of them for a feat? If they are intended to be so accessible, why do they have different proficiencies for the purpose of Weapon Focus, etc.? It's just a mishmash that while only slightly consequential, really offends my sensibilities as a GM and designer.

Samurai: Dude, the variations are interesting, but hardly distinguish an Eastern cavalier from a western one, substantially. I don't see what you're getting beyond a new Cavalier order, plus a slight variation that gives fighter-like specialization abilities. The Cavalier is already a very top notch samurai!

Ninja: The fact that "select any rogue talent" is even on the table lets me know this class is mostly rogue+. I was hoping for a class that is to the rogue what a magus is to the fighter. A "real" ninja class would combine stealth with elemental sorcery and demon powers.

Asian weapons: This playtest repeats the completely misguided notion that the katana should be treated as a bastard sword. First of all, that could create the bizarre situation where a ninja can use bastard swords but not longswords. Second, it was, is, and will be incorrect. Yes, the majority of styles use the katana two-handed... just like the majority of historical longsword styles do! And there are plenty of styles, including Muashi's two sword style, that use a one-handed grip. Katanas are not especially heavy, far from it. A katana is just a basic variation on the longsword-type weapon, just a longsword with a twist of scimitar. It's neither long nor heavy enough to equivalent to a bastard sword, and there is no reason to suppose that hordes of Japanese Warriors all need to blow a feat on EWP (most common sword in feudal Japan).
 
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I have no interest in guns (in Pathfinder) whatsoever, so this will likely be the first book from Paizo that has a large chunk of it that will be of no value to me.

Hopefully they (guns) won't show up in an adventure path... Blech.
 

I have some interest in Pathfinder guns, but I would definitely integrate them into the setting, either Renaissance style a la Warhammer or something like Planescape. I don't see a Gunslinger as a viable archetype, from a balance or story standpoint, in a world where his weapon is a 1000 gp item on par with a minor magical weapon.
 

Personal Preference: Those three classes will not be in any campaign I run and knowing the people I play with, will not be in any game I currently play in.
 

I don't see what you're getting beyond a new Cavalier order, plus a slight variation that gives fighter-like specialization abilities.
The fact that "select any rogue talent" is even on the table lets me know this class is mostly rogue+.
I haven't had a chance to read through them all yet, but apparently what you observe is intentional.
three new alternate classes: the gunslinger, the ninja, and the samurai. Each alternate class replaces the class features from another class. When a character takes a level in one of these classes, he cannot later take levels in the other version of that class.
Samurai replaces cavalier, ninja replaces rogue. Interestingly, gunslinger replaces fighter.

I'm not sure if there is a good, rules-y reason they distinguished the "alternate class" concept from the alternate class features from the Advanced Player's Guide, though I suppose the Antipaladin is a precedent.
 

Kaisoku has a pretty good review of the Gunslinger class Here. It summarizes many of my thoughts on the class.

Basically, I dislike how Paizo has chosen to handle firearms, and that colors my view of the class. I would have very much liked to see _these_ rules Beta tested, but my understanding is that they are already complete for the release of the Inner Sea World Guide next month, as firearms tie heavily into the magic-dead nation of Alkenstar. It is unlikely that they will see any major change before Ultimate Combat is released.

That said, they pistols as presented seem like reasonable one-off weapons for characters who _don't_ specialize in them. They offer a neat option for a one-off weapon for characters who don't want to specialize in them beyond the initial proficiency.

For a character that specializes in firearms, as the gunslinger reasonable should, they offer several limitations. Slow reloading, the potential to fail (sometimes catastrophically) 5-10% of the time, extremely expensive ammunition, etc. That said, there are a lot of threads on the Paizo boards adequately exploring all these things, and that is the whole point of the Beta test. We are also apparently only getting a preview of the firearms in the two mentioned in the playtest document (revolvers are coming), so I'll be interested to see what happens.

As for the ninja:

Pawsplay said:
Ninja: The fact that "select any rogue talent" is even on the table lets me know this class is mostly rogue+. I was hoping for a class that is to the rogue what a magus is to the fighter. A "real" ninja class would combine stealth with elemental sorcery and demon powers.

I think Paizo is pretty aware that they won't please everyone with these alternative classes. Not everyone wants firearms, or anything 'oriental' in their campaigns and that is okay. Things like the ninja are certainly one of those hot buttons.

By your description, you and I have very different ideas about what we want from a ninja class. I basically want a rogue with a bit of mystic flavour. Adding a ki pool in place of evasion, and having several tricks that use ki do this marvelously in my opinion. (Though full disclosure, my next character was going to be a monk/rogue, and will now be a monk/ninja).

Your description of a ninja as something that would 'combine stealth with elemental sorcery and demon powers' is not necessarily wrong, but does not jive with what I want from the class. Your description sounds not just anime-esque, but as if you specifically want a Naruto-style ninja.

I should note as well that the ninja trick 'Rogue Talent' and master trick 'Advanced Talent' can each only be selected once, limiting the amount of dipping into the standard rogue talents. I fully expect that there will be Rogue Talents in Ultimate Combat offering some crossover into ninja tricks, but much the same way were are only getting the minimal gun preview for the gunslinger, we're not getting a general preview of any new rogue talents in UC, at least for now
 
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My view of the ninja is definitely influenced by the traditional stories of ninjas as people who turn invisible, move through walls, and dabble in everything from alchemy to black powder bombs. I know of Naruto, but I've never actually seen it. My view of the ninja would be familiar to the image held by many Japanese people. The mystical dude is a more of a Westernized archetype; ninja in Japan are not seen as religious, but sorcerous. Describing such a ninja as "Anime-esque" would be like describing Arthur's knights as WoW-esque. I remember having this discussion on the old Torg list with regard to ninjitsu in the Nippon Tech realm, and the Japanese posters agreed wholeheartedly with my assessment of the ninja archetype.

I think the monk already handles the "mystical ninja" just fine. If you want to be a weapon wielder, the Martial Artist I wrote for AFoD works dandy. Add levels in Assassin to taste.
 

I would have preferred something along the lines of the Book of 9 Swords, or the Book of Iron Might, alternatively. Or both! :p

Still, I suppose there's no knowing what else might be in there, when it comes to the final mixdown.

Even so, I'm also 100% certain I have no need of Gunslingers, Ninjae, nor Samurai.

I guess I'll pass. Pretty sure that for those to whom it will appeal, Paizo will have done their usual excellent work, however.
 

My view of the ninja is definitely influenced by the traditional stories of ninjas as people who turn invisible, move through walls, and dabble in everything from alchemy to black powder bombs. I know of Naruto, but I've never actually seen it. My view of the ninja would be familiar to the image held by many Japanese people.

So to you turning invisible, moving through walls, and alchemy/bombs translates to:

pawsplay said:
A "real" ninja class would combine stealth with elemental sorcery and demon powers.

Whereas to me, it translates to a rogue with a few specialized powers. The ninjas in the beta test can:

1. Get bomb-related abilities (smoke bombs, choking bombs, poison bombs, etc.)
2. Turn invisible (general stealth abilities, Vanishing trick, fast stealth, invisible blade, etc.
3. Walk through walls (ghost step)
4. Dabble in alchemy (craft: alchemy)

among a host of other 'mystic rogue' type abilities. If you want to describe those types of powers as 'demon-related' or 'elemental sorcery' I suppose you can, but those are not terms that jump to mind for me for the examples you provided.

If you want to call it westernized, that's fine, but this ninja does what you just described. I can use it as a ninja, and can use it in a number of other settings, as I intend to with an upcoming character.

A monk certainly can be flavoured as a ninja. So can a standard rogue, or fighter, or a bard, or a ranger, or an alchemist, etc.

As I said, I like the way this class does things, and it seems a reasonable attempt at the archetype. If you don't, I'm okay with that.
 
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