D&D General Ultimate Fencers of 5e DnD

[doctorbadwolf]

So, I was imagining a character of mine and how I would have built him if the campaign were starting right now, rather than back before even Rising From The Last War.

He is currently a level 12, Rogue (Thief) 6/ Wizard (Bladesinger) 6, and he absolutely wrecks face. There were some mid levels that were a little rough, especially in terms of action economy, but now that he has been rebuilt with 2024 rules and has reached level 6 Bladesinger, he is kinda insane.

But, I also wonder, what if I had built him to lean into swordfighting rather than seeking arcane power, as a response to his family being killed in a wizard duel and one of the wizards then becoming a lich.

Which got me wondering, what would the best build possible be to mechanically represent the absolute deadliest fencing duelist in the world by level 12?

The only rules other than that goal are, all official so that everyone has the same pool of stuff to work from, and some part of the build needs to make the character good at killing mages. The original character is a forest gnome, but feel free to make a rival swordfighter of a different species.

So, how would you build the world's greatest swordsman on a mission of revenge against a lich?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Obviously the current build is very good, but it leans so hard into wizardry that sometimes I do feel disconnected from that original starting concept of a rogue trying to add some magic to his arsenal to better fight a mage.

But that build in more detail is:

Dresden Nuada Diarmuid Creidne Odrhain "Darkblade" Taliesen Woodsheart o Frostburrow an Tyr Dannan.
Forest Gnome
Rogue (Thief) 6 / Wizard (Bladesinger) 6
Point Buy starting stats: Str 10, Dex 15, Con 13, Wis 12, Int 15, Cha 12 (+1 Dex, +2 Int from gnome)
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Investigation, Stealth, Performance (from bladesinger)
Background (Custom+feat): deception, Persuasion, Water Vehicles, Navigator's Tools
Feats: Mage Slayer, SKilled (Arcana, Tinker's Tools, Sleight of Hand), Speedy
Trained Proficiencies: Alchemist Supplies, Sylvan Language
Expertise: Arcana, Athletics, Acrobatics, Investigation, Stealth
Weapon Masteries: Scimitar and Hand Crossbow
Main Spells I use all the time: Booming Blade, Haste, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Misty Step, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Thunder Step, Web, Hold Person, Minor Illusion, Mirror Image, Find Familiar, and other ritual spells.

WIth Bladesong and +1 Leather Armor of Flying I don't need the Wizard defensive spells that much except Absorb Elements, though sometimes I do use Mirror Image still, if i am planning on being really up in the mix rather than using my bonus actions to dart in and out.

Speedy lets me have a speed of 50 when Bladesong is going, and with disadvantage to enemy OAs against me, I don't even use disengage or the cunning strike option that often.

Mage Slayer makes my attack actions even harder to ignore for a concentrating mage, Bladesinger's Extra Attack and the nick property means that I am doing Booming Blade, a normal hand crossbow attack, and a normal scimitar attack, as an attack action, leaving my BA free for fun. I try to make the Booming Blade attack the last one so that it benefits from Advantage from Vex (hand xbow), and if the enemy is still up I can then get away, using my BA is needed to get far enough away that they can't reach me, or using it to hide, or to cast a spell via a scroll as a thief rogue with wizard levels.

I use alchemy and tinker tools to make arrows that deliver alchemist fire, acid, a small grenade effect, etc. with my hand xbow attacks, and when there is a concentrating mage I use that to make sure that even if they escape my reach somehow while staying in thefight, they have damage incoming every round until they use an action to put the fire out. This tends to make them hate me, and want me to die, which is of course where I am happiest.

I have a Familiar that often gives someone advantage, and I have advantage often enough that I usually have them Help an ally, and then fly away to a spot where it would be inefficient for an enemy to go after them.

Overall, it is a very fun character that does way too many things per round, to the chagrin of our enemies. Not the most maximally OP build I have ever done, but very effective and fun.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Some basic ideas I had for a version of him with little or no magic.

Rogue (Swashbuckler)/fighter (Battlemaster) more rogue than fighter overall, no need to ever go past level 6 fighter, all other levels rogue, tbh stay at fighter 4 until rogue hits level 7 or so. Manuevers and Cunning Strike is a really good mix, especially taking goading attack, riposte, and either disarm or lunging. I know precision is considered the best or whatever but IMO you should be hitting often enough as a twfer with extra attack and action surge that you just do not need to spend dice on making singular attacks hit. Save it for when you do hit to do something extra, or for turning a missed enemy attack into an opportunity to do sneak attack a second time that round. This is the only one where I would maybe take magic initiate to get booming blade. Maybe. Probably not. Three attacks with scimitar and shortsword or whatever is always better than 1 Booming Blade with a Rapier, and even if you want Rapier, take Dual Weilder so you can use it and a dagger or Scimitar. I guess if you are going all in on the Rapier, with a shield and Dueling fighting style, get Booming Blade for the levels before you get level 5 fighter.

Rogue/Monk (kensei)/Ranger (Hunter) - which rogue doesn't matter that much here, even assassin with alert feat would add a sort of opening fleche move, while Thief would make you acrobatic and able to cast some ranger spells as bonus action from scrolls. Hunter Ranger is to add Collossus Slayer (or depending on the adventure and GM habits, Horde Breaker)

Monk (any)/Ranger (Hunter) - fewer skills, loses cunning strike, gets more higher level monk and ranger stuff but also spends more time doing unarmed strikes unless you go kensei.

And then of course the other magical swordfighters we all know and love like Warlock/Paladin/Bard builds of various descriptions, maybe Bladesinger/Battlesmith.

 

[Charlaquin]

Some basic ideas I had for a version of him with little or no magic.

Rogue (Swashbuckler)/fighter (Battlemaster) more rogue than fighter overall, no need to ever go past level 6 fighter, all other levels rogue, tbh stay at fighter 4 until rogue hits level 7 or so. Manuevers and Cunning Strike is a really good mix, especially taking goading attack, riposte, and either disarm or lunging. I know precision is considered the best or whatever but IMO you should be hitting often enough as a twfer with extra attack and action surge that you just do not need to spend dice on making singular attacks hit. Save it for when you do hit to do something extra, or for turning a missed enemy attack into an opportunity to do sneak attack a second time that round. This is the only one where I would maybe take magic initiate to get booming blade. Maybe. Probably not. Three attacks with scimitar and shortsword or whatever is always better than 1 Booming Blade with a Rapier, and even if you want Rapier, take Dual Weilder so you can use it and a dagger or Scimitar. I guess if you are going all in on the Rapier, with a shield and Dueling fighting style, get Booming Blade for the levels before you get level 5 fighter.

I agree with Battlemaster, but I think taking Fighter to 7 for an extra superiority die and two more maneuvers, which still gives you 5 levels of Rogue for Cunning Strike and the same number of Sneak Attack Dice as you’d have at Rogue 6 is the better way to go given your cap of 12th level.

I’d take Swashbuckler for the rogue subclass to get +Cha on Initiative and Sneak Attack more consistently. Take two weapon fighting for your fighting style, and weapon mastery with shortswords, scimitars, longswords, rapiers, and greatswords for flavor, since you want to be the ultimate sword fighter. Though by the time the build is complete you’ll probably just want to use shortsword and scimitar basically always.

For maneuvers, definitely Riposte for an extra chance at off-turn Sneak Attack. I do think Precision Attack is worth taking to make sure your Sneak Attacks land. Disarming Attack, Goading Attack, and Menacing Attack are all really good too.

You get three general feats; I would definitely spend one of those on Dual Wielder and one on Defensive Dualist. For your third you could go with Mage Slayer since that was part of the concept you wanted to go for. Or you could go with your preference of Slasher or Piercer, or just double ASI for moar statz. Lucky, Alert, or Tough are going to be the best options for origin feats if setting-specific ones aren’t available. Savage Attacker is also acceptable.

 

[Silam]

What does "fencer" mean? To me, it conjures the image of a duelist with a rapier in one hand and nothing in the other.

Back in the days, bladesingers were essentially fencers that kept one hand free to cast spells.

In 5e all that is out of vogue. Bladesingers need no free hand anymore, and there isn’t any way (that I no of) to benefit from having a blade in one hand and nothing in the other.

The fighter’s Dueling fighting style comes close, but does allow holding a shield, so again, there’s no point in keeping a free hand (besides style, which, hey, is priceless).

But anyway… coming back to my original question: what does being a fencer mean to you? Based on the first posts it didn’t seem like keeping a free hand was part of the concept, and that’s totally fine. But it would help guide the build to clarify the design constraints.

 

[Charlaquin]

What does "fencer" mean? To me, it conjures the image of a duelist with a rapier in one hand and nothing in the other.

Back in the days, bladesingers were essentially fencers that kept one hand free to cast spells.

In 5e all that is out of vogue. Bladesingers need no free hand anymore, and there isn’t any way (that I no of) to benefit from having a blade in one hand and nothing in the other.

The fighter’s Dueling fighting style comes close, but does allow holding a shield, so again, there’s no point in keeping a free hand (besides style, which, hey, is priceless).

But anyway… coming back to my original question: what does being a fencer mean to you? Based on the first posts it didn’t seem like keeping a free hand was part of the concept, and that’s totally fine. But it would help guide the build to clarify the design constraints.

Fencing is the technical term for the sport of sword fighting. Any kind of sword fighting. A fencer is someone who fights with swords.

 

[Silam]

Fencing is the technical term for the sport of sword fighting. Any kind of sword fighting. A fencer is someone who fights with swords.

You are right. Historically, it has included a bunch of things, and since D&D is usually set in medieval settings, it makes sense to tap into these older traditions (main gauche in the off-hand, sword and cloak, etc).

My own personal bias, which I shared above, is admittedly modern in nature, influenced by contemporary fencing like the one we might see in the olympics.

That is why I wanted to see if the build request carried any such design constraints, or if anything goes…

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I agree with Battlemaster, but I think taking Fighter to 7 for an extra superiority die and two more maneuvers, which still gives you 5 levels of Rogue for Cunning Strike and the same number of Sneak Attack Dice as you’d have at Rogue 6 is the better way to go given your cap of 12th level.

Overall great points.

True, that is a big boost for one level, but IMO Expertise is at least as big of a deal, and rogue level 7 is basically the best level post level 5 of any class, so I would probably try to get to that before moving any further with fighter. Either way is a strong character, though.

I’d take Swashbuckler for the rogue subclass to get +Cha on Initiative and Sneak Attack more consistently. Take two weapon fighting for your fighting style, and weapon mastery with shortswords, scimitars, longswords, rapiers, and greatswords for flavor, since you want to be the ultimate sword fighter. Though by the time the build is complete you’ll probably just want to use shortsword and scimitar basically always.

If you have dual wielder it might as well be scimitar and rapier, no?
Swashbuckler is definitely the clearest winner for rogue. My current guy is Thief because part of his history is being an incredible acrobat, and second story work accomplishes that very very well. Having bonus action magic item use is a huge benefit too, but less story critical.
But if rebuilding him from scratch? Yeah, Swashbuckler.

For maneuvers, definitely Riposte for an extra chance at off-turn Sneak Attack. I do think Precision Attack is worth taking to make sure your Sneak Attacks land. Disarming Attack, Goading Attack, and Menacing Attack are all really good too.

IMO for a TWF character with extra attack and action surge...you are going to get sneak attack every round. You don't need every hit to land. Menacing is very good and Disarming is obviously very thematic. My biggest things for BM as a fencer are Riposte and Goading, so the rest is all pretty fluid.

You get three general feats; I would definitely spend one of those on Dual Wielder and one on Defensive Dualist. For your third you could go with Mage Slayer since that was part of the concept you wanted to go for. Or you could go with your preference of Slasher or Piercer, or just double ASI for moar statz. Lucky, Alert, or Tough are going to be the best options for origin feats if setting-specific ones aren’t available. Savage Attacker is also acceptable.

I'm not really a fan of Defensive Duelist, especially on a character that already has strong reaction abilities. And isn't Savage Attacker vastly better with heavier weapons with larger dice? For a character that is relying on sneak attack and making lots of attacks, I don't see how it could be worth a feat for that benefit.
For origin feats, yeah I mean those are probably the best one from the phb. I still allow the Dragonlance backgrounds and their feats, and Strixhaven, so Knight of Solamnia might be a contender, too.
I really wish you could get a fighting style or a couple weapon masteries from an origin feat, tbh. It would make the Monk much more attractive as a single class swordfighter.

What does "fencer" mean? To me, it conjures the image of a duelist with a rapier in one hand and nothing in the other.

Back in the days, bladesingers were essentially fencers that kept one hand free to cast spells.

In 5e all that is out of vogue. Bladesingers need no free hand anymore, and there isn’t any way (that I no of) to benefit from having a blade in one hand and nothing in the other.

The fighter’s Dueling fighting style comes close, but does allow holding a shield, so again, there’s no point in keeping a free hand (besides style, which, hey, is priceless).

But anyway… coming back to my original question: what does being a fencer mean to you? Based on the first posts it didn’t seem like keeping a free hand was part of the concept, and that’s totally fine. But it would help guide the build to clarify the design constraints.

Fencer here is only slightly less broad than the historical usage. Basically, dex based swordfighter preferred. I feel like in dnd heavier swords tend to have a very different vibe that is decidedly not the same vibe as finesse fencing.

It should, because greatswords are very fast precise weapons, but in fantasy media they are treated like damn buster swords...

 

[Tessarael]

I would want a build something like Fighter 11/Rogue 9, Fighter 12/Rogue 8 if you want the extra feats, or Fighter 13/Rogue 7 for Studied Attacks at Fighter level 13. The big benefit of getting to Fighter 11+ is the extra attack at level 11 in Fighter. From an offensive standpoint, there's not much of benefit at higher Rogue levels, other than additional Sneak Attack damage dice. Whereas, for example, Studied attacks at Fighter level 13 gives advantage on the next attack if you miss, which also allows a Rogue in single combat with an opponent to be able to use their sneak attack damage bonus.

I agree with the other comments above that the Fighter archetype Battlemaster is a good choice.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I would want a build something like Fighter 11/Rogue 9, Fighter 12/Rogue 8 if you want the extra feats, or Fighter 13/Rogue 7 for Studied Attacks at Fighter level 13. The big benefit of getting to Fighter 11+ is the extra attack at level 11 in Fighter. From an offensive standpoint, there's not much of benefit at higher Rogue levels, other than additional Sneak Attack damage dice. Whereas, for example, Studied attacks at Fighter level 13 gives advantage on the next attack if you miss, which also allows a Rogue in single combat with an opponent to be able to use their sneak attack damage bonus.

I agree with the other comments above that the Fighter archetype Battlemaster is a good choice.

Rogue post level 9 features are pretty much all very very good. Especially for a fencer build, level 10 and 14 improvements to cunning strike are fantastic. And many rogue subclasses are very good at later levels as well. Panache for the Swashbuckler is certainly worth picking up.

Still, food for thought, thank you.