In general, I agree that reliable talent is a really valuable feature. It’s just that the parameters given were to make the best fencer, and an extra superiority die and two more maneuvers helps with that, while reliable talent doesn’t, 6/6 could arguably be better in the general case, but 5/7 is definitely the better fencer.
Good point. That is one issue with MC rogue...those later features are so good that it's hard to deny them even when doing so suits the concept better.
Not with the 2024 version of dual wielder. That version lets you make an attack with a weapon (which doesn’t have to be light) as a bonus action when holding a weapon in each hand. But, the Light property allows you to make an extra attack with a Light weapon when you attack with a different Light weapon (and Nick lets you make it as part of the attack action instead of as a bonus action). That means with shortsword and scimitar you can attack once with your action (twice if you have extra attack), once with the same action using Nick, and once as a bonus action with dual wielder. Whereas with rapier and scimitar you only get to attack once as an action (twice with extra attack) and once as a bonus action. But the Nick property isn’t triggered by attacking with a rapier since it isn’t Light.
Ugh...I forgot how badly they ruined Dual Weilder, and completely screwed the entire concept of the very historically common rapier and dagger combo...
My group house ruled that before the new phb was even in our hands, so I forget. My bad. So yeah, scimitar and shortsword it is.
Fair enough. If you prefer 6/6, you only have three maneuvers to work with, so if Riposte and Goading are essential in your opinion, I’d still stand by Precision being the best option for the third, with Disarming and Menacing being the best options for a fourth and fifth if you go 5/7, or if you end up going above 12th level.
Yeah, disarming really is very good but I just tend to forget about it, and Menacing might as well be wrathful smite which is IMO one of the very the best level 1 use of a paladin spell slot, well above divine smite. (waaaayyyyy above DS. DS is not actually very good use of spell slots unless it is against a fiend or undead. Frightened is just vastly better than a die of damage.)
I just generally don't want my target running from me as a duelist build, I want them to want to kill me so they stay right there or even chase me when I want to make them chase me. But it is a matter of style so yeah I will concede that it is a very very good duelist maneuver if it fits what you want.
Defensive duelist is very strong in 2024 due to the AC bonus lasting until your next turn - it’s slightly weaker Shield until 13th level when it becomes actual shield, and then at 17th it actually becomes better Shield. Of course, Riposte is better if you have the Superiority die to spend, but the option is strong to have available.
Hmm. I guess on a non spellcasting swordfighter it is very good, since magic initiate would only get you shield once a day. I am too used to making Gish characters.
The thing that sucks is that there is no way to get a parry-riposte as one reaction outside of the monk class. If they made a new kensei that gets manuevers and keeps the ability to spend focus to add damage to a hit, I would probably abandon all this for that.
It is, which is why I said it was “acceptable” rather than including it in my top picks for an origin feat. Alert, Lucky, or Tough are definitely better options, but it can depend on what background ASIs you want/need.
It wouldn’t be worth a general feat, but your origin feat comes free with your background. I’d prioritize Alert, Lucky and Tough higher, but I wouldn’t be mad about Savage Attacker.
I get what you mean, but to me it just makes basically no difference in your damage output and doesn't give any new capability, so even as your origin feat I don't see it being worth it for a build based on "many attacks with light weapons".
And does anyone actually play with backgrounds being set in shape rather than customizable? I know it is technically the rule unless the DM is willing to make a custom background, but it is such a blatantly stupid rule I assume everyone ignores it?
I don’t remember what those do off the top of my head, but setting-specific origin feats tend to be very good, so I believe you.
Squire of Solamnia gives "
Mount Up. Mounting or dismounting costs you only 5 feet of movement.
Precise Strike. Once per turn, when you make a weapon attack roll against a creature, you can cause the attack roll to have advantage. If the attack hits, you roll a d8 and add the number rolled as a bonus to the attack’s damage roll. You can use this benefit a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, but a use is expended only if the attack hits. You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest."
and opens up the other Knight of feats which are solid and thematic, if not optimized. Each gives a stat increase of 1, and a BM manuever without calling it that, PB times per day. Knight of the Crown gives commander strike, Knight of The Sword gives Menacing Strike, and Knight of The Rose gives Rally. I wouldn't really take more than one of them unless playing a straight fighter, but I would say that Crown or Sword are worth one of your feats just for having so many uses per day.
Yeah, style feats aren’t worth taking in place of a general feat, and while weapon master is a fine general feat on paper, it sucks to have to wait for 4th level to unlock your preferred weapon’s full potential. Plus, the opportunity cost is pretty steep when you could be getting something like dual wielder or grappler.
Yep. Weapon Mastery would make much more sense as an origin feat, and frankly the fighting style feats are just garbage without a +1 stat or something. It sucks, because they could really help a lot of builds work, without making them OP. Oh well.
Still, I really like your feedback on this. Thanks.
with 2024 rules and some 2014 legacy features:
15th level elven champion fighter.
feats: Zhentarim ruffian, Elven accuracy, Zhentarim tactics, Piercer.
Just use rapier(vex)+shield, perma (super)advantage, 18+ crit
base 60% hit rate goes to 94%, crit goes to 38,6% for 3d8+7 damage
Okay but how does it play at level 10? And does it play like a fencer, or just like a very accurate fighter?
Definitely an effective character, though. I just would want some....moves, as a fencer/duelist. To me, that is a big part of what makes a character feel like that type of archetype.
Like if there was a monk that had the open hand features but not locked in to unarmed strikes, the Monk would be only missing the social skills that one generally expects from a swashbuckler duelist type, because then you'd have the defensive parry-riposte of deflect attacks, and the push-pull-knock down of those open hand moves, and the mobility...
The Rogue comes close with cunning strike, but damn i wish they were built into cunning action at level 2 as bonus actions that then you can do as part of an attack without a bonus action if you spend 1 SA die. That would be perfect.
